S10E136 Jesper Hansen/YesHealth - From History Major to Leading an Asian AgTech Awakening

we can learn a lot of lessons and that we can apply in business. And I think sometimes people have too much of a short sighted view of how long life is and how cycles repeat themselves. And I think what I found as a consistent thread for people that are fascinated with history or have studied it, but they have a broader perspective. They see things in bigger cycles. There's a lot of talk about how long country states last and how going through cycles of 100 years. And I see that a lot about what the United States is going through right now. It's going through its growing pains, if you will. I think it's always fascinating that people who study history at least have that perspective, to know that we have to see things sometimes on a bigger scale.

Jesper Hansen

4:41 - 5:13

We like to think that way, that by studying history we are better equipped at understanding the world around us, but still to use history to predict the future. Still not many historians will dare to say they can do that, but you will have a better grasp of things. And I think it's a good foundation, especially if you want to travel the world, because it gives you perspective. It teaches you how to see the world through the eyes of others, because they have another history and another experience than the one you come from.

Harry Duran

5:13 - 5:30

So speaking of a new experience, what was it like going from Denmark to study chinese studies and experiencing that culture? What was that experience for you? Like fish out of water, I imagine for the beginning period, especially as you're starting to learn the language and learn the culture.

Jesper Hansen

5:31 - 6:58

I think because I was behind most of my fellow students, that they had studied Chinese from the bachelor, and so I was four years behind. And then, luckily, the teaching tradition I studied both in mainland China and in Taiwan and especially in mainland China. It's quite traditional. Imagine how teaching was in the States, maybe, or in Europe 40 years ago. The teacher is demanding you, and they get angry if you don't do your things well. So I was put to the test, and one of the things I did write was instead of trying to sit in Copenhagen and trying to learn chinese and chinese culture, I did my whole master's degree outside of Denmark. So I immediately went to China. And it was a steep learning curve. Like, you can hardly take a bus or order food in a restaurant without knowing Chinese. So I caught up. I would say, though, people often ask me how my Chinese was after graduating from university. And at the time, you think it's good, but afterwards, when you join the real life, you realize that you don't quite know how to say photosensitives, for instance, in Chinese, they don't teach you that. So my job is a lot of building and physics and biology, and that's another level. So I reached that level only by joining a company. And I'm fortunate enough that many of my colleagues don't speak English, so I have to speak Chinese with them. So that further forced me.

Harry Duran

6:58 - 7:03

What was the biggest change for you culturally and your time there?

Jesper Hansen

7:04 - 7:46

Culturally, it's the. In Denmark, because I'm from a rural area, and our. We are very individualized, so we have a lot of private space. And being from a rural area, I could easily walk a street in the evening. And being the only one on that street in China, it's the opposite. It's all about the collective. You don't look at the needs of the person first. You look at the needs of the group. And then I lived years there without being anywhere where I was alone. And that was a strange feeling for me. So sometimes when I'm back in Denmark, just going to the countryside and having the sense of being alone, it's quite unique experience for me.

Harry Duran

7:46 - 8:23

It's so interesting to say that because I grew up just outside New York City and I've lived in New York City and I've ridden the subways, and you think the subways in New York are crowded. Then you see pictures of, like, the Trains in China. It's, like, next level, but you could be on a subway car in New York City with 100 people and nobody's making Eye contact. So it is a collective, but there's no connection. You would think more people, more connection, but it's actually the opposite because everyone's sort of doing their own thing, but it is a huge group of people. So if you're not comfortable with crowds. I've seen people be in Times Square and just be overwhelmed by all the senses. And I get the sense that a lot of that happens in the mainland, in Taiwan as well.

Jesper Hansen

8:23 - 8:45

I've traveled so much now that I've come accustomed to both sides. So to the point where if I go to Europe, I won't stay many months before I want to go back to China. I go to China, I won't stay many weeks before I want to go back to Europe. And I'm fortunate enough that my job will take me both places. So I'm quite enjoying this type of life.

Harry Duran

8:45 - 9:05

your first jobs, or early in: 2020

Jesper Hansen

-: 12:44

I was already doing work with yesselve at that point. So then I need to explain you what kind of company. Yes, health is. So, yes, health is the largest vertical farm operator in Taiwan. And it's been operating, it's built a couple of farms. It's running these farms. It's marketing and selling the products. It has sales to retail, like carafour, Costco, that you would know from us. It also has direct to consumer sales. It has its own logistics system. It even has a dimension of being an educational platform. We have visiting area, we have supermarket, we have restaurant, all an extension of the farm in Taiwan. So in 20 1819, that company was already quite established in Taiwan. And the company is founded by my father in law, and he is a taiwanese tech entrepreneur. And 2030 years ago, he founded a company that has been manufacturing what we call TFt, lcd flat screen technology. It's basically using leds to illuminate a flat screen similar to the one that you and I are looking at right now. And he built that company to manufacture screens for some of the tv brands that we all know. And so he became quite familiar with manufacturing process. And about twelve years ago, he took that company public and he left that company to found yesself. So at the time I joined yesself, they had already built farms in Taiwan, and they had built by themselves, by their own design and their own manufacturing of the equipment. So the vertical farming industry is to some degree still to this day, split into two traditions. There is a western tradition and there is an asian tradition, and actually the asian tradition was earlier than the western tradition. The western tradition was mostly a concept when the asian tradition was already building quite big indoor farms. And my father in law, who founded Yeseld, he is part of the asian tradition, and he never really managed to connect with the western, say, the suppliers that exist in the cea industry, the ones you have in the Netherlands and in us and other places, partly because Taiwan is extremely abundant in manufacturing facilities, and partly because he doesn't speak English still to this day. So he managed to put all the equipment together. And when I joined the company, I saw that with my background, even though I was supposed to facilitate from western context into a chinese context, I could do it reverse. So I started positioning yesself as a technology supplier for other companies. And in 2020, I made the first partnership for Yeso with a danish company called Nordic Harvest. And that's the one you refer to. And that came to be the kind of blueprint for how Yesl partners outside of Taiwan. And it's basically that we're helping other groups of entrepreneurs, companies, or it could be retail chains to build, design, build and operate vertical farms, where our local partners are then responsible for partly financing the project and also taking the products to the market. So, yes, self access a technology provider for those companies.

Harry Duran

-: 13:31

I'm curious about your experience as you started to have these conversations with your father in law about entering the business and maybe thinking about the personal challenges or pressures that you might feel or responsibility to be going into business. All the things that they tell you about family business to be concerned about. So I'm sure some of that was going through your mind, but also learning a new industry. So it's nice. I experienced it when I started the podcast. Just starting to have these conversations, discovering this new world that obviously has been in movement since the Dutch have perfected it with the greenhouses and now moving into cea and indoor farming. So I'm curious about like if you can put yourself back in those shoes of those days, back in 20, 1617, maybe when you're learning about vertical farming for the first time and what your experience was.

Jesper Hansen

-: 17:18

To a certain extent, I didn't take the first step because my wife had already joined the company. And whereas my father in law is focused on developing the technology, she is all immense in the operating side. So she operates the farm. And then I could see my wife's passion for this industry. And to be honest, at that time, I saw it as a big opportunity to the solution we have with vertical farming. The product we have in terms of elevating people's health, food, saving. It was too appealing for me to pass on the opportunity. And then add to that my skillset. Being able to drive the commercial implementation of our business was just a perfect fit for what my family needed with this company. So I didn't have many. I didn't have any second thoughts. I really, as soon as I saw the farm, I was sold. But I did have to drive the company through a kind of cultural change. So I saw quite early on that, yes, could choose two paths. One is to sell our technologies as technology only, like many companies are doing. You would sell irrigation system, or the led lighting system, or consulting services. And then you could sell left and right. But my analysis at the time was that a lot of farms were failing when they went from design or idea to practical implementation. Many farms didn't live up to the expectation of the people who actually built the farm. And I thought it would be too big a waste when I saw that we had built two farms in Taiwan that were already working. So I had to choose a different strategy, which is not native to taiwanese businessmen, because they sell hardware, but often it's a phone or it's a computer. It's a simple, easy to understand, easy to sell product. But I thought, yes, how has to sell the total solution in order to actually be able to help our customers reach the similar result as we have reached in Taiwan. So that came to that. Now we needed to help people to design the facilities, build them, oftentimes operate them. And it become a very complex product to sell. And one that we can still, to this day, only sell in whole, not in parts. And that's because yesself has not really learned how to integrate our solution with other solutions on the market. I hope that will come one day. But vertical farming is so difficult, and even for us, when we control the full solution, that if we want any chance of success, and here, I mean, often in terms of profitability, we have to sell the whole packets. And there was a kind of cultural change when I came to my colleagues and I said, no, we cannot just sell leds or fertilizers. We have to sell the whole package. And I need to travel there to foreign countries, and I need to bring dozens of my colleagues. And it's going to take years, but trust me, it's the right strategy. But luckily everyone believed in me. And if you scroll further down my cv, then you'll see that we've been able to do a couple of these projects in the past few years. And really it was only the two years with COVID that we weren't really able to do anything outside of Taiwan. Since Copenhagen we've built in Lithuania, we're building this year in Saudi Arabia, and next year we're building a farm in United States. So I think the strategy has been quite good for our company to some extent.

Harry Duran

-: 17:33

And it looks like from the way your cv is outlined and something I hadn't noticed before, but like that you're working directly and very closely with the company. And is it on the board as on the board of directors as well for these companies, yes.

Jesper Hansen

-: 18:42

So our strategy is aiming towards finding the right partnerships and then keep investing in those partnerships. So as you know, indoor vertical farming comes in so many shapes and forms and approaches and ways of thinking about how it should be done. So when we have found a group of partners and we have and mutual alignment and we've gotten them on board on our philosophy and we understand them and we go and build a farm with them, then it's many, many times better for us to get that farm to whatever successful criteria we've set for it and then build another farm with the same partner group as opposed to go out and sell our technologies to a competitor. So that means that to show our commitment to the long term partnership, Yeshelp actually typically brings a bit of investment to the project as well. So I sit on the board of directors of all our partners to the extent to share my industry experience, but also to manage the investment that ESL has made.

Harry Duran

-: 19:30

Yeah, that makes it so interesting. It makes a lot of sense because it really then starts to demonstrate how much of a collaborative partnership, an integrated partnership and a vested interest you have in success. Because a lot of times if you think about a provider of services or materials or turnkey solution, typically what they're looking at is like we're going to implement this and we'll set up a service contract and then when you need help, you call us and then, you know, you pay for maintenance, annual maintenance or whatever it is. But you know, this method that you described of structuring it in a way where you're now sitting on the board and you've made an interest, you're really connected and really tied into the success of these farms in a way that's like more integrated with your bigger mission at Yale's health. And obviously, when you have that sort of partnership, it feels like it's more exciting and more beneficial for everyone involved.

Jesper Hansen

-: 20:45

I think it is. At least that's the best model we have to date. And I think it works because this industry, or from our perspective, we don't need to have many projects. If we can have only a handful of projects, but most, if not all of them are successful. I think that's worth more in this industry at the moment, given all the derail projects that we've seen in the past decade. Maybe once the industry matures, then people don't need to see my face on the board of every company. But I think for the time being, it's useful. And hence, today I'm also calling you from a hotel room. I'm spending more time traveling than not. But it's really because we believe in this model, and we had quite a few requests for something different, where people like one of our technologies or wanted to partner in a different way. But we really care about the outcome for our, the ones that would procure our technology. And the only way we can not make sure that, but increase the probability of that is by accidentally treating our overseas projects as our own farms in Taiwan and supporting them with every experience that we have.

Harry Duran

-: 21:28

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Can you talk a little bit for the benefit of this audience? As I started the show, obviously based, considering where I'm based out of, a lot of my focus was meeting a lot of the companies that were us based and eventually UK, Europe based. And then I started to get a taste for what was happening in the MENA region. Thankfully, I was able to visit the Agramee conference in Dubai and then the vertifarm conference in Dortmund, Germany. But can you talk a little bit about what's happening in the Asia region and specifically, maybe if you want to speak to what's happening in China and how people perspectives are about where their food comes from and the importance of locally grown food. And have you noticed a shift in that?

Jesper Hansen

-: 24:32

So I think a common denominator in the western part of the industry is the sustainability aspects of indoor farming that is only now starting to take root in the asian part of the industry. Up until now, it has been almost exclusively about the health and the safety of the product. So what do I mean about that? In asian cuisine, fresh leafy greens is actually a quite novel concept. They have lots of leafy vegetables in their kitchen, but they're all cooked somehow. They're steamed, they're fried and they taste amazing because it's with garlic and oils and so on. But it's partly because that has been necessitated by history, because population density, pollution and then later on, heavy use of pesticides. So it was seen as a way to make the salads more appealing. Yeah, more safe to eat. So from a perspective in terms of providing the market with no need to wash, ready to eat, no pesticide, leafy greens was quite a novel concept in Taiwan. And that's really what we've been championing with Yessel, hence also the company name. And it ties back to my father in law's experience. I talked about him building this manufacturing company for flash screens. He was actually diagnosed with liver tumor towards the end of that journey. And like any other entrepreneur, he probably didn't realize his limitations. Working too much, eating unhealthy. So he had an awakening there and he tried to regain his health by wanting to eat healthier, exercise, do whatever you can do to your body through a natural way to increase your immune robustness. And he found that Taiwan at the time almost didn't have any organic to the sense that none sprayed leafy greens. And it just happened that there was this crossover between indoor farming, using his experience from Led, and then growing these type of leafy greens. That way you saw the demand in the market. So our main selling point in Taiwan, and when I see in Japan, for instance, South Korea, is the same, it's the cleanness of the produce. If you not so much our company, I'm not going to point fingers and some of these companies are not around anymore. But you can find pictures from 1015 years ago of vertical farms in Japan, for instance, where you would see the operators being looking almost like they work in a semiconductor factory. They would look so surreal with suits and masks. And so it was a lot about the safety and cleanness of the product. And that's really also what was our main driver to begin with. I would say though that the sustainability aspect has taken more and more on recently. Now people are also about lowering carpentry footprint, reducing food mileage and so on. But that's a more recent thing in Asia.

Harry Duran

-: 25:24

It's really just a matter of educating, because it's not a matter, it's also providing a product, but also educating the consumer as to the benefits of the product, changing habits in terms of how they think about food, how they think about leafy greens. What's an ideal leafy green supposed to look like as opposed to what they've been conditioned for? It to look like. How much of that do you think guest health thinks about from a marketing perspective? And, you know, I think about when I go to the grocery store because of the podcast, because of the past three, four years, I'm conscious, I'm looking at these clamshells, I'm turning them over. I'm seeing where this food comes from. I'm noticing some of my past guests here. You know, the Gotham Greens, the plenty's even revel here in Minnesota as a greenhouse. But I'm more aware as a consumer now of the choices I'm making. And you know, do you start to see that or do you see that, yes. Healthy playing a role in some of that education process?

Jesper Hansen

-: 29:04

I think it means everything to Yesof. I think to understand what kind of company we are. I think Yesof was started with the ambition to educate the taiwanese population about how they could increase their health through what they eat kind of food as medicine concept, which is, by the way, something we could learn from in the west, is that they prefer to, for instance, they prefer to see the doctor when they're not sick. So continuously visiting the doctor, consult about what you eat and your habits to prevent you from needing to go there one day you're sick. So treating your food and your environment as medicine, and I don't think we ever, or my father in law, when he founded it, imagined it could be an international technology company from the beginning. The very first farm we built, a farm that's not even in operation anymore. It was built with dimension of education. So. And fast forward to today. I think we have a couple of thousand visitors every week, and we have everything from schools, tourists, company groups. And I think it's at the core of why our company is profitable today, because it's true that we have, being a vertically integrated technology company, being able to manufacture 90% of our equipment by ourselves and in Taiwan, which has a cost advantage. So we're building the farms cheaper than most of our peers. But honestly speaking, we're also selling the products pretty expensive. And we're proud to say it, it's actually our, it's our motive. We're trying to educate the consumer in Taiwan by showing them and getting them closer to how we produce food, but also trying to disrupt the concept of. I normally use this analogy that you go into the supermarket, you go to the spirit section, or you go to this cosmetic session, any consumer will acknowledge that there is a quality difference. And of course, the better wine sells more expensive than a cheaper wine. Then the consumer turns towards the green and vegetable section, which is arguably more important for our health and well being than the wine section. Some might argue with that, but we come to the green section. That concept is no longer applied. It's all about volume and price per pound or price per kilo. And we think that's a shame. And it's not a fight that yeso can win alone. But we're purposely trying to disrupt that concept. So we're happy to put a higher price point on our products because we want to show the consumer that it's a better product. But how are we also able to sell at that price point? That's done through education. That's done by inviting people into the forum. And we're walking a fine balance between saying that others are like this and others are like this. But people can make their own conclusions when we tell them that. Do you know that these salads will grow without the use of pesticides? Once our fertilizer is done, we're not discharging it into the environment, creating nitrogen pollution. By the way, we have solar panels in connection with the farm, so we're emitting less CO2 by producing these plants. So we're just telling our story. And slowly people are getting more and more educated and aware about that. Actually, some of the ways of producing vegetables that we have today are less than optimal, let's say that way. And then in light of this, the premium that we're asking for them to pay, maybe 30% or 40% more than what is the field grown stuff suddenly doesn't become that much more expensive. When you add on all these advantages.

Harry Duran

-: 29:54

That makes a lot of sense. And that model reminds me of a conversation I had with Hiroki Koga, the CEO of Oshi Berry, and really at the forefront of this idea of premium or gourmet strawberries. I think it was pretty much where people were in shock when they first thought of the concept. These nine strawberries in the container, I think it was 50, $60 or something. You know, obviously, as you can see from the success of their recent fundraise and the visibility, they've done a great job with marketing. So I think there's something to that. This aspect of, like, why not? Why can't there be a premium category for produce and for leafy greens? And just really, it takes a bit of education, but I think it's important because to your point, you know, people who value that, who can put a price on, understand the importance of paying for something that's a more premium product because of the benefits involved. I think over time, more and more people are becoming attuned to that.

Jesper Hansen

-: 31:32

I believe so. And that's why I'm happy to be in this industry. And when we talk about that, it's also, I think, necessary to say that when we say our product is more expensive, really, is it? Because most farming activities, say in the European Union where I'm from, they get some type of support. Sometimes they're like right out subsidized. Other times they get, farmers get access to favorable loan terms in the bank that we as vertical farmers cannot get. Furthermore, farmers, many places in the world say in Taiwan actually is not a job, I would call it an activity. So Taiwan is still, in terms of farming, quite traditional economy, that families or groups of family will farm just near their house and they would do it when they come home or in the weekends, and then they would do for their own consumption or bringing a little bit to the local market. So what does that mean? They're actually not pulling a salary from that activity and they're not paying themselves a salary. So when we are able to still go to market with a product that has not been subsidized in any way, and we're creating good jobs with good salaries for our workers inside the farm, and we're still able to almost compete on price, and then you factor in the technology improvements that we can envision in the coming decades, I'm sure that indoor farming is going to play an increasingly big role. I do have to say he's very brave to grow strawberries because that's extra expensive and the gap you need to close there is extra big, but someone has to lead the way and we'll get there one day.

Harry Duran

-: 32:01

So as you've started to expand your presence, I know you've mentioned this is now your second podcast appearance, and you've been starting to attend some of the conferences. So do you feel like people are discovering, yes, health maybe for the first time or because you were operating in China and in Taiwan, the people were not aware that you had been in vertical farming for such a long time. And I'm just curious about what your experience has been as you've been starting to have some more conversations with some of your peers in the states and Europe as well.

Jesper Hansen

-: 33:38

I do actually think that Yesselp is underexposed, especially given the, I don't know, the scale of other companies operations because there many times there, if we take it as for instance, in terms of revenue, many of them don't have public books, but there are not many vertical farming companies that are bigger, if any, both in terms of revenue and in terms of scale of farms, then yes. But the reason why we're underexposed has a natural explanation. It's because as where many other companies have taken in, for instance, venture capital money, and they have made a lot of themselves in terms of social media exposure and so on, yeshoff is funded to a large degree by my family and has taken a much more organic approach. We're quite confident in the future of our company and we're not willing to take any risk. We know that we're going to get to where we want, so we just take it step by step. And further to that, I'm really the only one in our company who has the language skill to go and present about our company in, say, western, on a western platform. So I think in the past few years people have come to know our company more and more. But it's true, we're not that exposed being a taiwanese company. And there are so many companies from the US now and lately also from the UK, I think they are taking more of the spotlight. But it's fine for us. I enjoy those events because I don't think we're competing amongst each other. I think we should rather exchange and learn how to create successes for each and one of us because I think there's so much market that we can take.

Harry Duran

-: 33:46

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So for the listeners and the viewers who are new to, yes, health, who would make for an ideal partner for yesself.

Jesper Hansen

-: 37:29

I'll tell you what we're not. I think other companies are better equipped to helping farms that are from, I would say not hobby projects, but quite small installations to installations of the sort of like container sizes where they're like super easy to deploy and can be deployed anywhere. Yes. Focused on building large scale farms for the purpose of chasing the unit economics that will create profitability on the transaction of growing and selling the salad. And adding to that, it's not a coincidence that we're building in north Europe or in the Middle east, because I want yeso to demonstrate with the first, say, five farms that we can actually build and run them profitably. And it's any day easier to do that in a place where here, for instance, in Saudi Arabia, there is hardly any local competition. Almost all the fresh produce is imported from somewhere. Italy, from Africa. Outdoor farming is impossible. And even when you do it with modern CEA technology in say, greenhouse here, it's very difficult due to the extreme temperatures in Lithuania, where we built last year it's the same, but because it's super cold in the winter, so they have local production throughout the summer, but throughout the winter months they have to import most. So I like to go to those places, because then I don't need to feel like I'm taking anything away from local farmers. I'm straight out replacing imports. So I like to be there. And further to that, I think before we think of indoor vertical farms as a hugely profitable endeavor, I see it as a solution to a problem. I see Yesshel has a huge business opportunity, not even needing to create huge returns with our farms. But as soon as we can break even and go beyond, so we make sure that we don't lose money. When we build farms and our partners and investors don't lose money, then we can go and solve issues all around the world, be it getting rid of pesticides, shortening supply chains. And if you look again, for instance, to the issue of north european. So, north european countries have historically bought from farmers in south Europe, and they would swap between spanish farmers, italian farmers, dutch farmers, based on the success of the climate that year. So wherever the harvest is better and more stable, they'll buy from there, and then maybe they'll pass on that supplier next year, because that specific place have had unfavorable conditions. But if you are a company, say you're a retail company, or you are a branded company, who's in any way needing what we produce in the vertical form, that's quite unstable supply setup, maybe not so much now, but now I'm talking ten years in the future, 20 years in the future. So if you can solve those challenges. Actually our farms do not need to be hugely profitable. We will still have the opportunity to build farms for solving these problems. So YESL is gearing up with our business model and our ability to build big farms towards more industry type of projects.

Harry Duran

-: 37:43

And so how much lead time or what's the, in terms of when you think about the life cycle to get a farm up and running, how long does it usually take from the concept, finding the location, making an arrangement with the partner, and then starting to build.

Jesper Hansen

-: 39:15

So both in Copenhagen and in Lithuania. So in 2020 and in 22, we shorten that period. We set up the farm in an existing warehouse kind of structure. It has its advantages and it has its drawbacks, advantages that you can get in immediately. But drawback is often that, at least the way we look at vertical farming, is that the vertical farming system is not detached from the structure around it. Quite the opposite, the farm will be much more efficient if the structure, in terms of the layout and for instance the ventilation and so on, supports the farm just like a greenhouse is built for purpose. So we actually now went back to the model that we have been using in Taiwan is we build our own farms. So we actually refined a plot of land, we design and build a building and then we move in the production facilities afterwards. So now that takes quite a bit of time, but say you have a building structure ready for yeso to come with our system, then it takes only about three months for yesl from we start installing the equipment until we can start the first test run and produce. And then we typically produce a month or two months and we run the facility up to high output before we then, because that's something about stabilizing the quality of the produce and then we start to sell in and deliver to the market. So three to five months from we start installing the equipment to where in the market.

Harry Duran

-: 39:51

That's a pretty fast cycle for turnaround. So it's helpful to hear that. And I'm also curious to understand from your perspective, what are you seeing in terms of like awareness, in terms of people I know the conferences are picking up. They're a big part of, we've mentioned earlier, we talked about it, I think, before we started, about indoor AgCon, indoor Agtech, which is happening in Chicago, the conferences in Dubai. But there is more. I'm seeing more and more about conferences and the industry getting together in Asia specifically. And I'm curious what you're seeing from your perspective about more people becoming aware of this as an industry within Asia as well.

Jesper Hansen

-: 41:43

I think, like you say, I think it's rebouncing, so to speak. I think Asia experienced what the western world just went through in the past year, or is undergoing right now, which is, which is the initial excitement. And a group of first pioneering companies failed. And that happened in Asia 15 years ago. And now the industry is recovering and coming back again. And just like it's happening in the west, the companies that are now coming back, they have learned the lessons of their preceders. So I think the industry in Asia is coming back, but it's slightly slower pace. I would say the initial excitement there was before is not there, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing because that one of the things that went wrong in the first iteration in the west was that it was too much excitement. It was maybe too much money and push and drive towards unrealistic goals in the short term. Many of the things that were envisioned by the pioneers will eventually happen, but not short span of time that they tried to do it. It's just not possible for such an immature industry. So I think the asian tradition is having a much more healthy projection right now. And I think the same will happen in the west. And then I think it's to the better of everyone actually, because we don't need to be in such a rush. It's better to do something and do it well, because we're all here for the same reason. We're all here to have an impact. And the sooner we mature or the better we mature as an industry. So we build farms that actually have an impact, the better for everyone.

Harry Duran

-: 41:55

That makes a lot of sense. I'm curious, as your role has gained more visibility being the face to the west of what's happening with ES health, what's a tough question you've had to ask yourself recently in your role?

Jesper Hansen

-: 43:42

The toughest part of my job is exactly what I was educated for actually going back to. I said I wouldn't wanted any other degree. My job is bringing a partner group that has a certain outlook for the industry, certain expectations about what indoor farming is and should be. Many times they're less experienced at Yeso, so they oftentimes have unrealistic expectations. And then bringing my colleagues in and then making those two groups align and understand each other and create the synergy and the respect that is needed to actually make a project come to life and be successful I think is the most difficult thing. And you would be surprised when you work so intensively. So for instance, here in Saudi Arabia, we have local partners who are building the building and we're installing the farming system. And I just said that the building and the farming system has to connect at some point and speak together. And just a day today, working together across cultures and language is quite difficult. And I think the everyday I get difficult questions. It's like why this guy is doing like this, why this guy is doing like that. And I have the role of forcing myself to be in the position of the other and mitigating the small conflicts that happen on a construction site like that. So those are not the big questions, those are the small questions. But those small questions and solutions are actually what's producing the positive outcome for yessel. It's actually our ability to integrate and work in synergy with our partners that I think is the most difficult part of my job.

Harry Duran

-: 44:25

It's interesting because you can see from the way you approach these projects, the hands on approach, you have the involvement on the board and the fact that you're on site now and you have to be that liaison, because I think you understand, you know, to your point, it's not the big questions, it's the little questions that didn't get answered yesterday that can really domino effect, you know, a project in a negative way if not handled immediately. And I think being that, and for your partners to see that you have a commitment to be on site, to make sure these teams and all these people need to speak together and are speaking the same language and are moving towards a common goal, I'm sure it gives your partners some confidence that they've made the right choice and that, you know, that you are really, truly invested in the success of the program.

Jesper Hansen

-: 46:16

Actually, I don't consider all of our past projects a huge success. And just like you said, I think it can be boiled down to us. I mean, yes, not realizing or making sure that alignment is there before we start, because that alignment, like you say, is so essential because it's a difficult industry and there are going to be a lot of challenges and problems and things that we didn't anticipate. And if the alignment is not there, and the way that you look at the problem, hence the way you propose and want to implement the solution, is not understood on the other side, then that is not going to produce a good outcome for yourself or for our partners. So we have to be, I think, hands on at this point in time to be able to build forms in this way for others successfully. Otherwise we have to go back to the other model I told you, which I was not so keen on, is we can easily manufacture and pack and ship a bunch of led panels, for instance. Customer will probably be happy for those panels, but it will not necessarily produce a successful farm. And that's what yesselve is chasing more than anything, more than the business is that business of building successful indoor farms. And just one notice that I don't want to take all the credit because it's not only me. So my father in law, he's also here. And in fact, I left the site early to do this conversation. He's still there. And my wife, who's on the operational side, she's in Lithuania right now, being the farm manager there. So it's my whole family who is hands on. So we feel it's a necessity to support the business model and especially the promises we've given our partners. If we talk the talk, we have to walk the walk afterwards. So that's what we're trying to do.

Harry Duran

-: 46:32

Truly, truly a family affair here. So everyone's involved, which is really nice to see. So can you talk a little bit about any of the projects you have coming up or. I know sometimes it's hard to talk about something that's still in the planning stages, but is there anything that, yes, health is working on that you might want to discuss?

Jesper Hansen

-: 48:49

Yeah, we've already been public about our next project, which will take place in us, in the state of South Dakota. And I think immediately now, again, you see that I'm quite happy to build in a place like South Dakota because it's far away from, say, the Salinas in California. It's a place where you don't have a lot of native agriculture, so we would be able to produce there. And by the way, it gets colder there than you would think. It gets really, really cold. So we're happy to build a farm there and produce and deliver products that are not otherwise available in the market. And us is one of the few places we haven't ventured into yet. And there are reasons for that because we think that in us, first of all, we need to find the right partners, but also because it's actually a quite big thing when we do it. Because Yeshub is not only looking to expand, to build a farm there, we are both for making our product more price competitive in the future. Right now, we're quite dependent on manufacturing facilities in Taiwan, but also because we're not blind of the geopolitical situation in the world. De globalization, and especially Taiwan being potentially pawn in a greater power play between us and China. So we're actually looking to diversify our supply setup, meaning that as we go into us next year, we're actually also trying to move some of our manufacturing into the US and into Mexico. And the timing for that is quite kind of right for us, because in China and Taiwan, we've enjoyed the fastness of the supply chain there. In China still to this day, sorry to say, they're faster than Europeans and Americans. We make something, we break it, we make it again. And it's just super good at the R and D states. But Gesho has now reached a level where many of our equipment is mature. We can actually take the drawings and we can ask almost any manufacturer around the world to quote those for manufacturing. So we're looking into that next year, and I'm quite happy to finally take Taiwan yesself to us. So that's what I'm looking to do next year.

Harry Duran

-: 48:51

That's exciting. Where in South Dakota?

Jesper Hansen

-: 49:05

It's in sur city, so it's just in the bottom of the state. It's the tri state area. I believe it must be Iowa. And oh, what is the first state there? It's a tri state area.

Harry Duran

-: 49:06

Well, that's exciting.

Jesper Hansen

-: 49:08

I think it's Nebraska.

Harry Duran

-: 49:36

I probably could be, yeah, I think so. I'm new to the midwest, having grown up in New York and lived in LA, so I'm just now getting familiar with Minnesota and Wyoming. I mean in Wisconsin. So definitely like the. That part of the west is really fascinating because it's really conducive and could benefit from like a vertical indoor farming solution. So it's exciting to see what you're building there. So it'll be exciting to follow the progress. And once the farm is up and running, it's probably a little bit closer to me here. So maybe I'll see if I can plan a visit.

Jesper Hansen

-: 49:38

You're very welcome.

Harry Duran

-: 50:07

So as we get close to the end, I like to leave space at the end of these conversations. Because of the nature of this podcast. A lot of your colleagues in the space, fellow C suite leaders, are listening to the show. So do you have any messages for the indoor farming community that in your experiences so far? I consider Yale's health a pioneer in terms of being early in terms of figuring out what works and what doesn't. So I'm curious, as you've seen the industry mature, some thoughts you might have.

Jesper Hansen

-: 51:36

I always feel uncomfortable. Pioneer that label I will take. We're quite early on, but leading the industry. I think one of the difficulties we created for ourselves is to be in a combination of not very transparent about some of the key metrics and or being possibly inflating some of those. So creating some unrealistic expectations between us and maybe sometimes to our investors or our customers about what indoor vertical farming is and can be in the near future. And I think what I have enjoyed being with many of my colleagues in the industry in the past years that feel people have started to share more openly. And I am not often enough sharing things on social media. But when I do, I try to actually give out some numbers about what we're doing in terms of the stats of our farms and some of our thinking, trying to share with others how we're doing things. Not saying that is the right way or only way that it's working for us, but I think that would be the encouragement to my colleagues, is to try and share more and not competing, thinking that it's a zero sum game that we have to inflate eats of our companies or our performances? Because I think it's, what is it called? Conducive. It's not helping us. Excellent.

Harry Duran

-: 52:19

Well, I appreciate that perspective. And I think it's been a common message, this idea of sharing. You know, you don't necessarily need to, need to give away the secrets of the company, but a lot of the times, the things that we do keep secret are not really that secret. I think we would benefit if some of the, you know, or everyone in the space learned how we can connect more. And where are there opportunities to learn from things that are working? Because at the end of the day, it'll benefit the entire industry. And I think if we all see this as a collective mission to increase awareness about indoor farming, about the benefits of it, I think it'll help the planet on a bigger scale, which I think is the mission that I hear consistently from these conversations.

Jesper Hansen

-: 53:45

I completely agree. I want to give you an example. Yes. Of, just as a standard practice, when we share information, we sign, like any company, a non disclosure agreement. Our investors like that. We do that. But I'll tell you honestly, I feel like I could send the blueprint, the design drawing of our farm to anyone in the industry. First of all, they have their own design, so they wouldn't just adopt our design even if they got them. And even if they got them, they wouldn't know how to. Maybe they could build, but they wouldn't know how to run the farm because there's so much more to it. So I think we could share much more than we do, but. Okay, then let's just say people don't want to share their designs or patterns. Then they could share something about. Because actually, that's the small part. When people in this industry talk about how unique their design is, for me, it makes me feel, okay, you didn't have that much experience actually running that farm, because the really difficult in this industry is not drawing up the farm and building it. It's running it successfully. So we can talk about what are the problems we encounter when we run the farms, and how did you approach that problem? How did you solve it? And so these are more like problem solving methodologies and concepts that we can share. It's not a proprietary secret. So I like these conversations, and I think there's more to gain than to lose from these kind of interactions.

Harry Duran

-: 54:51

Yeah, that's very inspiring. And hopefully even just a little bit that I'm helping to play the role I'm playing just by having these conversations in public. I think maybe there is an opportunity at an upcoming conference or just to see if there's a platform or a forum around table. Let's bring in the leaders of these companies in a more relaxed environment and maybe we can solve some of these issues without feeling that there's a need for competitiveness. I think there's opportunities for that. I appreciate your openness and having those discussions because I definitely think we need more of them. I really enjoyed this conversation. Jesper. I know we had some scheduling challenges for the past few weeks, but finally we made it work and I was really looking forward to it because I've been hearing a lot of good things from my partner in Agtech Media Group. Sepper of Igro News has spoken very highly of yes health as well. And you know, we're both partnering together to give a lot of visibility to companies in this space. So I'm really like honored to share your family's story. It's really inspiring to see how far you've taken the company, and I'm sure they're proud of the visibility that you're providing for the company and the relationships you're building with these partners as well. It's yeshealthgroup.com. anywhere else you want to direct people.

Jesper Hansen

-: 55:25

To learn more, our LinkedIn profile, we'll make sure. And then actually the Yeshelp group is the brand we use outside of Taiwan. People can also on Google write yes health ifarm. It's actually a much so I and then farm. It's the much bigger brand that we have and it's the consumer focused brand. People can learn more about our farming operations. I just want to say thank you for chasing me. I know I'm difficult to schedule with my travel pattern and I really enjoyed the conversation as well, and I would be happy to continue it in some shape or form in the future.

Harry Duran

-: 55:27

Likewise. Thanks. Esperanto.