S12E161 Renko Schuil/TTA ISO - Collaboration vs. Secrecy: Lessons for Vertical Farming Success

Harry Duran: 00:00:00

So, Renko Shel, Sales manager of indoor farming at TTA ISO, thank you so much for joining me on the vertical farming podcast.

Renko Schuil: 00:00:08

Thanks for having me, Harry. Nice to meet you.

Harry Duran: 00:00:10

Likewise. I briefly got to meet a couple of your teammates at Indoor Icon as well. You didn't get to make it or were you there? I don't think we got to cross.

Renko Schuil: 00:00:21

Unfortunately not. I started my year with some health issues. Nothing serious, luckily, but spent some weeks in the hospital early January. So I didn't feel comfortable enough making the 12 hour flight to Las Vegas. So I really miss it because it's a great opportunity to meet with the industry.

Harry Duran: 00:00:38

Yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:00:39

So I'll have a second chance this year at GreenTech Amsterdam, but yeah, unfortunately I missed Las Vegas. Yeah.

Harry Duran: 00:00:46

Yeah. I keep hearing a lot of good things about green tech. So I'm trying to write 5050 now, but everyone I've speak, I've spoken to talks about Indoor Icon. And then obviously on the European side, you know, everyone has greentech as a must attend event.

Renko Schuil: 00:01:02

Yeah, it's a great event and the whole industry is there as well. So. Yeah, and home game for us, so that's good as well.

Harry Duran: 00:01:09

Yeah. Have you been to Indoor Icon before?

Renko Schuil: 00:01:12

Yeah, yeah, I've been there three times there, I think.

Harry Duran: 00:01:15

Renko Schuil: 00:01:15

I love the show.

Harry Duran: 00:01:17

Okay.

Renko Schuil: 00:01:18

Too bad it's in Vegas maybe, but I like Vegas. Everyone should see Vegas once in a lifetime.

Harry Duran: 00:01:25

Renko Schuil: 00:01:25

Yeah, two days and then it's then you know the drill.

Harry Duran: 00:01:29

I always tell everyone like after two or three days you've had enough, you know, you got a little, you lost a little money on, in the gambling and maybe you saw a show and then you probably spent one or two nights out a little too late and then your body is just like. Yeah, because it's non stop because it's, you know, in the casinos it was all, it's 24 hours.

Renko Schuil: 00:01:48

So the show is great and I like the people and the atmosphere and I've seen the show growing over years.

Harry Duran: 00:01:54

Yeah, I really like it.

Renko Schuil: 00:01:56

Yeah. And again, too bad I missed this one. Yeah.

Harry Duran: 00:01:59

So what was the feedback from the team? Because I want to thank you also publicly because for sponsoring our first indoor ag report with Sepper. I have a copy here for the people that are on visual. We got a really nice feedback. We printed 150 copies and they all went. And so we put them at some, at the TTA table and some of our other sponsors grow tech microclimates. And everyone was just, you know, I kept checking in, they said, yeah, the people are coming, they're taking the report. And then so far, when I got home, Stepper was doing some nice promotions while I was away as well, you know, from his side. And so far we had about 200 people, probably more now sign up, you know, just from the online version as well. So for our first report we were really excited and I really want to thank you again for supporting us.

Renko Schuil: 00:02:43

That's great. It's great. It's a great report. We were happy to, to be able to contribute this episode. Notice feedback was, was good. We spoke to a lot of the overall atmosphere was quite positive is what I learned. The interest is there, the plans are there. And it was. We had quite a follow up on leaks to do as well. So it turned out to be a great show for us. Yes.

Harry Duran: 00:03:09

Yeah, sure. Let's talk a little bit about your background for people that are meeting you for the first time on the show. You know, I always like to go back as far back as you want to go, maybe back to university if you'd like. But I'm just curious people's paths, you know, how they enter the world of like indoor farming and you know, when it started to be something of an interest for you.

Renko Schuil: 00:03:28

Yeah, that's funny because my study was in the facility management director, so it had nothing really to do with the indoor farming world. But I grew up in the Westland area where I live now in Maltwai. So it's.

Harry Duran: 00:03:43

Yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:03:44

You know, the area maybe between the Hake and Rotterdam, it's okay. Accurate greenhouses. So yeah, I think When I was 10 I worked at this tomato grower, okay. With paper in the wooden crates. And then when I was 13, I started picking tomatoes. And so basically I grew up in the middle of the greenhouse. So it. Okay, it's no coincidence that I ended up in the industry. The reason why I ended up is a little bit of a coincidence. I was looking for some interim job. I was between two jobs and I wanted to keep myself busy and I got a small job for a couple of months at metaz. It's a well known supplier of hardware for midtech and high tech greenhouse.

Harry Duran: 00:04:29

Okay.

Renko Schuil: 00:04:30

And I almost never left. So nine years later I had a quick brief switch to a different industry. But within a year I was, I was back and I spent my years since. So I started in 2000 in the CA industry. So for 25 years I worked always on the supplying side in sales most of the times. But internal logistics, hardware, growing systems, climate shading, screens, basically everything until I came at TTA back then, just TTA three years ago. And I dived into the world of automation and robotics.

Harry Duran: 00:05:14

Okay, so you've seen it all.

Renko Schuil: 00:05:17

I've seen it all. And it was quite funny because when I was working at Metaz, I got a phone call from a contact of mine and he said, I have some people over from the US and they are thinking about building a vertical farm. Can we talk with you and discuss growing systems and what to look for? I said, well, of course. That's when I got to know Mike Salkheit and Tisha Livingston from Adiega Farms. And they were just starting.

Harry Duran: 00:05:48

Yeah, yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:05:49

They just had the first research farm or they did a small farm. And I was fascinated by their story and the idea behind it and their passion about revolutionizing the food industry. Later on I, of course we stayed in contact, but wasn't a big order. So it got well made a little bit to the background in my, in my head already.

Harry Duran: 00:06:11

Sure.

Renko Schuil: 00:06:12

And then a couple of years later, I got into talks with TTA about a position for specific part of the industry, the indoor slash vertical farming.

Harry Duran: 00:06:24

Renko Schuil: 00:06:24

Immediately I said, okay, I want to do this because I interest was created long time before, but I immediately switched on and I was excited for this opportunity. Yes.

Harry Duran: 00:06:37

Renko Schuil: 00:07:37

That time doesn't work, it will never work. And I'm saying this very. How do you say that very. It wasn't so direct but because there are a lot of sentiments still, there are believing in it, people doubting, etc. But overall, why? What's the point? We have greenhouses, what needs to be, especially the Dutch. And I know we can be a little bit having this attitude of knowing it all. We do know a lot because we are in it for so long already.

Harry Duran: 00:08:13

Pioneers. Yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:08:15

Then there's the risk of thinking that the only way is what you know. And I still think that for a lot of cases, I still think it's the way to go because I think for some crops at this moment, with, with the situation we are in now, with the level of technology we have now, I think that's the, for a lot of crops, it is the go to way of growing in greenhouses. And I think and I see a lot of different areas in the world and countries picking up and really evolving their industry, but still everybody in the whole world looks at the Netherlands and what we come up with. And of course it's our job to maintain that role, to keep on innovating, squeezing the last couple of percentages, water saving or yield or pushing it to the limits. But still I think we discussed GreenTech five minutes ago and it's still a big show. And why? Because everybody looks at the Netherlands but at that time it was vertical farming doesn't work. Why do it? Why do it? And I think that sentiment changed, of course, because not only elsewhere in the world, but also in the Netherlands, Wageningen University, for example, they show that a lot can be done and that there's potential. I just don't believe so much in. And now I'm. I'm switching to my opinion. I don't believe so much in, in having vertical farming as a business case. It's not a goal. So my belief, and I think that's sometimes it's what hurting the industry a little bit. We have some, we got the news yesterday again from another big player and I think it's part of the learning curve. So. But still the whole industry has effect from use like that, headlines like that. But seeing it as a sole business case is not in my perspective the way to look at it.

Harry Duran: 00:10:20

So because what I've been hearing more and we've had other guests come on, talk about more of a hybrid approach, how now greenhouses are maybe partnering with vertical farming to help with some of the early, the either the propagating or the early stage growing. There's some benefits in doing that. Are you hearing more and more like openness to either partnership ideas or Maybe combining technologies or at least being open to conversations of ways to work together. Vertical farming.

Renko Schuil: 00:10:47

Yeah, very much, very much. And I think that's, I think at this point it's the quickest win to make vertical farming worlds. Investing in.

Harry Duran: 00:10:56

Yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:10:57

When you look at the more traditional crops grown in greenhouses, for example, propagation. Yeah. It's almost a no brainer to do it multi layered vertically controlling every bit of aspect. Also in propagating the hardening of the young plant, doing this vertically, I think that's a very good. That can be very. What I meant earlier in having a business case. So you look at, you have certain goals or an idea in your mind that you want to explore and an answer to that or something that can help you reaching your goals can be a greenhouse or a vertical farm or whatever it is. We've never heard, let's say your way around in the horticultural industry. You say okay, I'm going to be in consultor and no way you would write, you start your business case with I will buy a laptop. So first of all I will buy a level. But that's what happens in the industry. So the first line was we will build a vertical farm. But it's, that comes later because you know, it's I want to produce healthy food close to where the people consume it or I want to improve the quality of the food we have on the table. And later on, okay, given the climate, given the, the price of the square meters in my city or for the land, I'm choosing a vertical farm or a greenhouse with a vertical farm to reach my goals. But and I always find it funny that as soon as someone who wants to bake fresh bread and sees money in it and says the first line is I will buy an oven, then people say okay, sorry, I will not give you money. People say I will build a vertical farm and they get hundreds of millions. And that's what I find funny but also a little bit of lacking in the industry is to come. Okay, where's your, where's the business case?

Harry Duran: 00:12:54

The business case, yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Especially when you use those metaphors or those analogies like to make those comparisons. And I think what's happening is, you know, with the latest news of plenty like it's everyone's realizing that were not building technology companies and everyone was so desperate to try to find a unicorn in CEA and you know, looking at it from a, you know, from that perspective of like how are we going to get to the billion dollar mark and just Purely. And that's how they think. They think of technology and they think of, like, you know, how else. That's the. Because that's the sexy part, right? The robots and the tech and the AI and that gets the investors, you know, obviously they didn't, you know, understand the industry enough to be asking the right questions. Because if you're an investor, you know, you probably want to be asking, you know, the important questions of, like, you know, what are you producing? Who's your head grower? What's your market? Do you have takeoff agreements, you know, where. What neighborhoods are you going to be building in? And just all these things you would think about. And what we saw at Indoor Icon is everybody, the mood. And people have talked about this on LinkedIn, you know, a couple of times already, is the mood is, like, more subdued and more, like, realistic. Of like, okay, now the people who are, like, looking, chasing valuations, you know, they're starting to, like, slowly leave, you know, the conversation with their tail between their legs because they realize, like, you know, that's not the model that works and it's back to the basics. You know, the growers, the conversations about profitability and, you know, how we properly scale. And so I think people are sort of, you know, a bit disappointed with what's happened. And obviously some people benefited from some of the money, and we saw a lot of news and maybe from a sort of exposure to the outside world about the term of vertical farming. You know, maybe something. What a lot of that was helpful in, you know, for. Over the past couple years to get the word out, but now it's like, back to, like, reality of, like, actually doing the work and figuring out how to make these business models.

Renko Schuil: 00:14:47

I totally agree. And I think all the businesses that did fill up until now, we needed them as well, because they created some momentum and they also created the moment that now people starting in the industries think, okay, I will start small, I will master the growing and then scale up wisely, et cetera. But, yeah, so I think they had their function in the whole ecosystem, and a lot of people now know how not to do it and more and more how to do it, because as I said before, the hybrid version, I think it's a quick win. But there is still a market for vertical farming. It's. It's just. Yeah, it's not for every crop in every region and every climate.

Harry Duran: 00:15:30

Yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:15:31

o. But. But still, I think there's a market for vertical farming for sure, because otherwise I wouldn't be so enthusiastic about it.

Harry Duran: 00:15:40

So talk to me, a little bit about the origins of TTA for people that are not familiar with tta. And then we can get into obviously the merger with ISO, but what's the origin story for tta?

Renko Schuil: 00:15:50

So the founder of tta, he was an engineer in the automation industry in the horticulture and we had some dispute about how to make a certain machine. And then he said, okay, well then I'll start on my own. And that was 1996. Next year we'll be celebrating 30 years of TDA.

Harry Duran: 00:16:07

Wow.

Renko Schuil: 00:16:08

And he said, okay, I will start. And funny enough, our home market is the USA US market. Because he had, he had good connections with some second generation Dutch growers in the us Said, I will build the best transplanting machine. Will you buy it? They said, if you buy the best transplanting machine, we will buy it. So he had his order for his first and he, he started working on the machine. And then I think this is story. I, I wasn't there of course, but this is what I heard. So at Christmas time the whole family from the US came to celebrate Christmas here in the Netherlands. And of course they visited the founder on TTA and he said, well, is this the machine he's building for me? Oh, is it really that good? And they were all growers. You can buy, you can make my, you can make one for me as well and one for me as well. So first couple of years, I think the only orders were from US market, sort of a home market. So not long after that we started the branch in Tennessee.

Harry Duran: 00:17:08

Okay.

Renko Schuil: 00:17:09

So we are well established in the US market. And of course later Europe, the Netherlands came and Europe came and I think for many years already we supply worldwide. We are now with a branch office and a service office, sales office and service office in Australia as well. We have a sales office in the least in France. So we are widely spread, either sales or service or both actually. And TTA focused very much on plant handling and plant selection. And that focus was really, I think it caused the success and the leadership we show in the market till now because we had a very dedicated focus on plant handling, plant selection. People knew within that field we would deliver. So that really helped us.

Harry Duran: 00:18:02

Okay. Yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:18:04

And like you said, so last January we merged with ISO. ISO was founded. I think it's a little bit younger than TTA.

Harry Duran: 00:18:14

2002, it says.

Renko Schuil: 00:18:15

Yeah, they were founded. And it's funny because we treated each other as competitors. But now we're merged. We are actually learning that we don't have so much overlap in our Portfolio. Yes, we do both the sorting of young plants, but they do it differently and for a specific piece of the market compared to us. And that goes for a lot of other equipment as well. I think the only one is the sticking of the unrooted cuttings. That's really competing piece of equipment where growers still can choose between one or the other. But it's really complementary instead of a pure competitive message. That's. And that's nice. And with this new file, formed company because it's an equal merger, so nobody took the other one over. So it actually merged. So sales wise, we, of course we carry each other's portfolio now under our arm. But I think R D wise it is the biggest impact is on R and D because instead of having to innovate defensively around some patents or some ip, we can now join forces and go head first into making the automation of tomorrow. And that's what we. Wait. That will make a big. We will make big steps.

Harry Duran: 00:19:38

Yeah. So you mentioned like when you were talking about your CV before, how you had, you know, you had an opportunity to work at or you saw an opportunity at tta. Now that you see the, you know, the industry and having spent some time there, you know, how do you think about your role and what, you know, your responsibilities are and what management is tasking you with? You know, how much of that is related to the merger and how much of it is related to just the opportunities that exist and kind of just want to get a feel for what's going to be on your plate for the next 12 months.

Renko Schuil: 00:20:13

How did. Well, that's a very good. So we have four sectors. We serve as a tta. So we have ornamentals.

Harry Duran: 00:20:22

Okay.

Renko Schuil: 00:20:23

We have bulbs and cut flowers. We have carbon and fiber. So that's forestry. That's all crops that are grown for the fibers. There's food and cea and of course I'm in the food and CEA sector together with a sales manager from ISO and of course every sales office which is local. So in Tennessee and in Australia, they all the four sectors.

Harry Duran: 00:20:47

Okay.

Renko Schuil: 00:20:47

Then with the support on that food and CA piece from me and my colleague.

Harry Duran: 00:20:53

Okay.

Renko Schuil: 00:20:54

So there's a bigger portfolio. So that creates bigger opportunities for both of us because we can actually do much more once we are traveling and visiting customers or talking to customers. But I think so little step back to three years ago, I started a TTA to do the indoor vertical farming market.

Harry Duran: 00:21:14

Yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:21:15

And you know what happened three years ago? It went down. Maybe it has to do something with Me, But I don't believe that.

Harry Duran: 00:21:23

No.

Renko Schuil: 00:21:26

So that was difficult.

Harry Duran: 00:21:28

Yeah, of course.

Renko Schuil: 00:21:28

And I kept on spending a lot of time. I'm taking the stage wherever I see a possibility to let ourselves know, to present my view, our view on the market, on how we should treat the market. What's wise to do in. While automating, I once did a presentation on the five steps to successful indoor farming. That was the. Indoor Farming for Dummies. It was a little bit with a. With a smile, of course, but. And I think now it's time. When I hear what my colleagues brought back from. From Indoor Echo, for example, I think now's the time to harvest what's been so. Over the last couple of years in terms of making ourselves known, because we have a strong dedication for the market. Because never in those three years we stopped looking at the market. I always. I wasn't into econ. I was in green tech. We were everywhere, you know, so we have a dedication for that market. And I think that's what. For the coming 12 months, I'm getting busy and busier within that market because I think now is the time to follow up on everything that's been said in the past three years.

Harry Duran: 00:22:35

Yeah. I'm curious, Renko, when you said you were on some of these stages, especially during this time when, you know, coming in at the peak and then starting to see everything start to dip, you know, I imagine a lot of people were losing hope in this sector, you know, and trying to figure out if this is just a waste of time, is this just a fad? But, you know, when you think about the concept of food and then cea, I mean, this demand for food is not going away. Like, we're never, as human beings going to stop eating. You know, it's just a function of where we get our food from. And, you know, climate change, no matter what side of the political spectrum you're on, is something you really can't deny. It's affecting our ability to grow food. There's a big push for regenerative agriculture, you know, in many parts of the world, because, you know, monocropping has destroyed our land. And so, you know, there's so many factors at play here. And I'm curious, you know, what were some of the things you were talking about on stage during these times when people were probably looking for hope in terms of figuring out where we're headed?

Renko Schuil: 00:23:35

That's a good. Yes, I noticed that. And I think that's. How do I put that? Not so much asking for hope. Because most of the, A lot of the people that were at those shows or that I spoke to in those occasions, they were already evolved in the industry.

Harry Duran: 00:23:53

Yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:23:54

So. And I think others really are telling the world what we do. And I haven't found that stage yet. So within the industry, because you're right, we have to look at how we produce our food differently because in the coming decades we have. There's no other way. So I think you're right about that. But the people within the industry, yes, they were looking for hope, but also hope in terms of how can I make sure in this, every. This perfect storm we're in while energy prices were rising and it was harder to get money, especially Europe, of course. And what can I do to go through with my plans, et cetera. And I think a piece of that puzzle is automation. And if it's not now because you're, you're starting as a relatively small facility, it's at a later stage. And you need to think now on what choices to make in pieces of equipment of, to be able to automate when you're scaling up. So whenever how small your facility is, we can always be in contact. And I'm happy to sit down with you and talk about the choices you make because I've seen a lot of facilities limiting themselves in automation because of some choices they made when they're very small.

Harry Duran: 00:25:17

Yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:25:18

And not thinking ahead about automation and how about processing and where your facility is growing. So I think there was always a reason to come in action and always a reason to invite me to come and discuss this project, how small it was. And I don't care to sit down and spend a couple of hours. I'm always learning. In every conversation I'm having, I'm learning, but also discussing something where there's no business now, but I know it will be there two or three, five years time.

Harry Duran: 00:25:48

Sure, sure.

Renko Schuil: 00:25:50

But then making sure that then every choice they made to step up and be ready to automate.

Harry Duran: 00:25:59

Yeah. What I love about that approach is that you're willing to have conversations with people who are just getting started. Because I think in the beginning people have a lot of questions. There's so many competing technologies out there and it's probably confusing for people. I'm curious, Rinko, you've seen a lot of companies succeed and obviously some that fail, the ones that don't succeed. You know, is there a commonality that you see where people are like, making the same mistakes or maybe there's a decision they could have made earlier that would have been smarter for them that the. And you know, if you've seen enough of these over time you can start to see that there's a trend and help prevent people from making those mistakes. So I guess the question is like what's a common mistake? You see people maybe in the planning process or just not thinking through how to prepare if they are thinking about automation in their future.

Renko Schuil: 00:26:45

I think that I have a very specific one and that's not knowing your market and then it doesn't matter if you're in the end you build a vertical farm or a greenhouse or just an open field culture. If you don't know your market, if you cannot answer who will buy my product at what price, in what distribution channel, et cetera, forget it, you will never succeed. And most of the failing businesses thought okay, we will build this vertical farm, we will build the technology and people will buy it anyway.

Harry Duran: 00:27:19

Sure.

Renko Schuil: 00:27:20

Consumers tell me, I'm a consumer as well. Of course. Why would I pay more or why would I choose you over somebody else? For what reason? What do you contribute? And I think those companies couldn't answer that. There were examples. And I said yeah, well they don't know their market. And they said no, no, no, they sold their year round produce to this marketing. Yeah. And that's exactly my problem with it. They didn't know the consumer. They don't know who they're growing for.

Harry Duran: 00:27:52

Yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:27:52

And then you are either just a, how do you say that? A A small piece of the whole supply chain.

Harry Duran: 00:28:00

Yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:28:01

You cannot build a multi million facility just to be one small piece in a supply chain.

Harry Duran: 00:28:07

Sure.

Renko Schuil: 00:28:07

So you need to know the market and most of the. And of course other mistakes were made as well in my opinion. By the way, I'm not getting happy of talking about the mistakes only.

Harry Duran: 00:28:17

Well, it's important to understand.

Renko Schuil: 00:28:19

Harry Duran: 00:29:13

Yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:29:14

They come see each other.

Harry Duran: 00:29:15

Yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:29:16

They discuss how to handle a certain pest or disease. They come together talking about nutrition recipes. They, they are used to collaborate.

Harry Duran: 00:29:26

Yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:29:26

And of course I know that the big tomato supplies in the greenhouses now becoming a little bit more competitive. But still those grower groups, they learn from each other. And that's what I didn't see in, in the vertical farming industry.

Harry Duran: 00:29:39

Yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:29:40

It was already IP driven, it was tech driven. Everybody their cars to the chest because they, they didn't want to communicate. Everybody was. Everything was top secret.

Harry Duran: 00:29:49

Yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:29:49

Every sales interview I started started with signing an NDA.

Harry Duran: 00:29:53

Oh man.

Renko Schuil: 00:29:55

Or growing leafy greens or lettuce or you know, if you say it out.

Harry Duran: 00:29:59

Loud, that sounds silly. So after you look at it after the fact, when you look at you sign the NDA and then they provide this like super proprietary secret, do you come to realize like most of the time that what they're protecting is really nothing that's innovative or just, you know, they're just trying to be secretive about nothing.

Renko Schuil: 00:30:20

Exactly that. And we have experienced a hype. We should be aware of. It was a hype. I remember one time, I will not name names, but there was this company where this huge facility in the Emirates and big news announcements. It was the biggest indoor, biggest vertical farm in the world. AI driven. And I wasn't involved. So I didn't. It's not that I signed an NDA so I had to look into it. But pretty quickly I understood that the AI part was a almost real time knowing the humidity, the temperature and the irrigation. So what a basic pre computer or can manage no AI part.

Harry Duran: 00:31:03

Yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:31:04

Talking about the hype. We from the Netherlands or we from the horticultural industry, we think okay, that's something. But yeah, if you are in it.

Harry Duran: 00:31:11

I think in the States they would call that bs.

Renko Schuil: 00:31:15

Exactly. Then so we learn a lot since luckily. Yeah.

Harry Duran: 00:31:21

And so how do you see a difference in the markets and you know, you've mentioned you've got new offices in Australia, got started in the US in the Netherlands and figuring out different regions, you know, where it makes sense. You mentioned over in the MENA region as well. Do you see different needs in these regions and different ways of tackling some of these brick projects.

Renko Schuil: 00:31:45

I think the. That's funny because I think the regions where it makes most sense to grow your food without daylight are the regions where less people live, basically. So the question is if you build this big facilities for like in the Nordics, for example. It makes sense because if you want to grow year round in a greenhouse, you have to put a lot of energy in it for additional lighting. You might as well make it a box and put energy in the. The H Vac as well. And yeah, control every aspect of the growing environment. Same counts for the Emirates, for example, the Gulf region.

Harry Duran: 00:32:21

Yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:32:23

Where you put a lot of energy in cooling the greenhouse, then you might as well make it a box and put lighting in it as well.

Harry Duran: 00:32:29

Yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:32:30

But then like I said, the problem is less people live in those areas. So that's something a little bit contradictive with. Yeah. Should you invest so much money for less people? But I think those are two regions where it absolutely makes sense to do it completely indoors, for example. But then, yeah, we cannot feed the world with only leafy greens. I think people need something more, some more proteins, some, etc. So we need to look at different crops as well.

Harry Duran: 00:33:01

Yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:33:02

When I look at the market and I oversee it and I see, okay, what are the needs? Is the need for different crops. Okay, being able to grow in indoors, for example. And I'm not saying in all the other. So in Europe or in the US that it doesn't make sense. You can still build a business case around it for niche products or for niche brands, maybe. So I believe in that. But the quickest win is, I think in countries where you have to put a lot of energy growing. Anyway, if I see different needs in the countries where we are based and already I don't think so much because, you know, when you're in the industry in the US or in Australia, people know what's out there and they quickly adopt different technologies. You can see. There I go again. Dutch greenhouses everywhere in the world.

Harry Duran: 00:33:52

Sure.

Renko Schuil: 00:33:53

You see good. Not only Dutch brands, of course, you see other equipment, you see the Italian equipment all over the world. You see us H Vac all over the world. So people adopt very quickly.

Harry Duran: 00:34:07

Are you seeing inquiries about different types of crops that people are just more interested? You mentioned there is more interest in just moving obviously away from the leafy greens. Tomatoes know, there's always going to be that demand. But are people getting more curious or asking or coming to you for, you know, starting to be experimenting with other types of crops?

Renko Schuil: 00:34:29

Yes, very much. But I think the thing is that when you talk about cucumbers or tomatoes or peppers or. Or even crops really with high nutrition volumes.

Harry Duran: 00:34:43

Yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:34:44

I think first the, the breeders and it's their turn to come up with varieties. Let me give you an example, and I know that's five bridges too far, but wheat, for example.

Harry Duran: 00:34:57

Yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:34:58

Now in the open field you have a big stand with a relatively small top where the actual grain is. The wheat is.

Harry Duran: 00:35:06

Yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:35:07

In an indoor farm, because it has to instance the wind and rain, etc. In an indoor farm you wouldn't need that. So the stem can be the size of the actual crop in the open field and you can have a much longer. So it's varieties. In tomatoes, for example, you need a variety, a dwarf plant snack tomatoes or cocktail tomatoes. But they need to ripen all at once because you don't get see that plant week after week after week. It's one harvest, maybe two.

Harry Duran: 00:35:39

Yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:35:39

And then you get rid of it and you start a new cycle.

Harry Duran: 00:35:42

Okay.

Renko Schuil: 00:35:43

Because I think what we've learned is that vertical farming is at its best when you have multiple short cycles within a year.

Harry Duran: 00:35:51

Renko Schuil: 00:35:52

Is anywhere where you place a crop for half a year or a year, like you do in a greenhouse. Retirement.

Harry Duran: 00:36:00

The makes sense.

Renko Schuil: 00:36:03

You don't automate that, you know, so you just put it in the greenhouse and you let people go buy it or robots. In the meantime, we created a nice picking robot for tomatoes. But so I think that's. So as soon as the breeders come with varieties for short cycles, multiple cycles in a year, easy to handle. So plants, etc. Then the supplies of growing systems and the supplies of automation, such as us, we come up with the right equipment to work that crop.

Harry Duran: 00:36:34

And so how much of that is. A lot of that is obviously technology that you've built over the years and you've perfected over the years. And then do you have requests or, you know, as you start to work with these new crops, going back to R and D and you know, having to create new machines that perform new functions that, you know, previously weren't needed before.

Renko Schuil: 00:36:53

Yeah. And the difficulty with that is, to be completely frank, it's we as a company, we are not good at one offs.

Harry Duran: 00:37:01

Okay.

Renko Schuil: 00:37:02

So we need a certain volume.

Harry Duran: 00:37:03

Yeah, yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:37:04

There's always a moment that we will decide, yes, this is something we believe in. We will invest in this. Because in a few years time this will explode. Or as we are there. But I sometimes get requests and I can immediately say, well, how much we would have wanted to, but it's not for us.

Harry Duran: 00:37:23

Yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:37:24

And luckily there are companies now like Rooted Robotics.

Harry Duran: 00:37:28

Rooted Robotics, Yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:37:29

A perfect example. They step in that niche because they say, okay, well we have this low capacity automation for starting companies. I think it's Great. And I think the market will always sort it out because you have your local, most of the time local machine builders who can build a one off for this specific task. I know, for example, I've said one of the people I come across all over the world is Luis Garda. It's a Swedish company, Vertical Farm, and they build, they have this chewing system and they are a local supplier, builds their transplanting machine for this vertical growing system. Perfect. That's what you need, somebody who can adapt to your situation.

Harry Duran: 00:38:15

Mm.

Renko Schuil: 00:38:16

And we are better and we've proven over the years that we do best when we have where we can make a machine that we can, where we can build volumes of. Because otherwise if we make a one off we are too expensive and it would take up too much time in.

Harry Duran: 00:38:33

Our R and D. That makes a lot of sense.

Renko Schuil: 00:38:35

But we follow the market, of course, because we know what's going on in the market and we know we learn every day, technology wise, but also market wise. So we follow it. And of course whenever we see a possibility, we step in because we are there to help the market try forward. Yes.

Harry Duran: 00:38:55

I'm sure you have a lot of responsibilities in your role, especially with a lot of concern around our food security, interruptions in supply chains. And so this is probably something that's top of mind and people are asking you questions all the time about, you know, where the future of this industry lies. What is a tough question you've had to ask yourself recently?

Renko Schuil: 00:39:18

Oh, that's a good question. That's a good question. What's a tough question I had to ask myself basically? Well, I see a lot of. We talk about responsibilities. It popped in my mind is about food safety. Food security is more geographical. Countries should be aware of that and local communities should be aware of food security. Food safety is another thing because everybody knows its examples of lettuce, for example, maybe, but contaminated with some bacteria or something. And we should be aware of that. And I sometimes see facilities and I'm thinking by myself, okay, how about food safety? Step into a, a greenhouse where lettuce is growing. Everything is open. You, of course, you sanitize your shoes, etc, they take care of it. But still the gutters with lettuces go underneath other gutters or other. You know, it's. When you look at it from a food handling perspective, there's a lot to learn.

Harry Duran: 00:40:28

Yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:40:29

And my question always is, is what role do I take? Because if I'm being too, if I make the customers too scared of what they should take into account, then he might as well go to my neighbor who says no, of course not a problem.

Harry Duran: 00:40:47

Yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:40:48

But I have a responsibility in that as well in my perspective. So it's, that's, I think balancing in the part of my role is what I find tough sometimes, but also what I find fun, what I get my energy from because yeah, in the end is always helping the industry forward.

Harry Duran: 00:41:09

Yeah, whatever.

Renko Schuil: 00:41:11

To my extent and to the knowledge I have at this point etc. But it's always helping the industry forward. So I always touch it and I always playing what we know and what we've learned in the conformance project, etc. Because they are tending to look much more about a, a food production system.

Harry Duran: 00:41:29

Yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:41:29

Add to a growing system for a half fabricate, for example. That's a thin line. And I like well being on that line and advising. Advising and doing something with it.

Harry Duran: 00:41:46

Yeah, yeah. That's what makes I guess your job interesting because people come to you for the expertise because you've seen so many variations of projects and you've seen what works, what doesn't, the failures and the successes. And I think it would be smart for someone who's interested in working with TTA to have that conversation with you and so that they start their project on the right foot, you know, so they're not making the same mistakes.

Renko Schuil: 00:42:06

Yeah, that is exactly. And a lot of people do come to us and ask for advice or what should you do? It's every person always, of course, everybody wants to say yes.

Harry Duran: 00:42:18

Yeah.

Renko Schuil: 00:42:18

So do you have a solution for my yes, that's the first thing you want to say. And more and more we look at okay, but what's really sensible, what's wise to advise at this point, and I'm not meaning that in a negative way, but I'm quitting much easier now in certain folks or in certain advisors and I say okay, we are not a good match because of. I can explain it. I will always direct them to the parties that can help them because of course it's one ecosystem and if I cannot help them, why would anybody else always forward them? And that's part of my role as well. We have this big network so we have to make use of the network. But I quit much sooner making the time I invest in projects that, that I think that are on the right track and a good fit for us. I have much more energy and time for those customers. So I think that's a. You can only do that when you're long in the game. What is a potential success and what's not.

Harry Duran: 00:43:26

Yeah, it sounds like what you're trying to do is do the right thing for the customer, even if the right thing is to direct them somewhere else, that some other company that would be a better fit, or maybe even telling them the bad news that they're. From everything you've seen, they're probably not ready to be working with you. And I think maybe they can come back when they've got everything together or a better business plan, you know, a year from now when they have a better chance of success.

Renko Schuil: 00:43:50

Of course, we are a business, so the goal is always to, to, to be in business. But yeah, like you say, sometimes it's they are not there yet or some other company is a better fit. And yeah, I will always advise them in that direction. Yes.

Harry Duran: 00:44:08

So, Rinko, we like to leave a few minutes at the end of these conversations. I call it like a collaboration session. It's an opportunity for you to, if you have any messages for the vertical farming industry that, you know, there's a lot of CEOs, as you've seen in past episodes, that have been on the show that listen to the show, people that are interested in vertical farming and obviously, you know, because of your, you know, years of experience and with a company like, like dta, you know, you have this broader picture of what's happening on the global scale. I'm just curious, you know, if you have any thoughts for the industry and, you know, anything we can do to kind of continue this feeling of collaboration.

Renko Schuil: 00:44:47

I know you asked this question at the end of the show. I was going to say the, you are a grower, think like a grower. As one concluding message. So I already set it. Too bad. Now I think I'll keep it within the automation because that, yeah, that's our job. Think ahead. It's what I meant earlier with even if you're not there yet, ready for automation, for high capacity equipment, get into talks with me, with my colleagues, with automation companies in general, because it can save you a lot of time and a lot of money when you have to change certain things in your company, when you have to build it for the automation that you want to buy at a certain time in the future. So think ahead. And I think the most important look for industry standards because a lot of things are already invented, already done. So either the industry can say it's a good idea, but tested it, it doesn't work to the next, or it's a good idea, it's already here and you can buy it off the shelf and it Saves you a lot of time and money, et cetera as well. So I think basically get some common sense in the industry. But always I like to add without losing the entrepreneurship and the drive and the disguise the limit idea of what if we do this, what if we do that?

Harry Duran: 00:46:17

Yeah, I think that's important to not lose that enthusiasm because we still need the big dreamers and the big thinkers with the big ideas and then. And we'd need on the other side, the practical people who can tell you, you know, bring you back down to earth a little bit and tell you what's possible. But you still need that mix because if we move to the other side of just the people who just do the day to day and can't think the big picture, you know, we're going to miss out on some opportunities. I appreciate you sharing that.

Renko Schuil: 00:46:42

Exactly. Yes.

Harry Duran: 00:46:43

So thank you again for connecting and again for your support of everything that we're doing to spread the word. I'm glad we got to share a little bit of story because, you know, obviously people go to these conferences, they see a lot of TTA at these events and I just wanted to kind of give them a peek inside of what's happening in the organization. So as always, if you've got any new updates, make sure you share it with our team as well because we want to make sure we spread the word about the great work that you guys are doing.

Renko Schuil: 00:47:07

Oh, we'll do. So thanks for having me. I enjoyed it.

Harry Duran: 00:47:09

Yeah. So the website is tta ISO.com and I'll have a link to your LinkedIn as well in case people want to connect.

Renko Schuil: 00:47:15

It's ttaminus.ISO.com.

Harry Duran: 00:47:18

Yeah, minus. Yeah, we'll put that as well. I appreciate your time, Renko, and you.

Renko Schuil: 00:47:26

Thank you very much.