S10E123 Viktor Kulcsar / Veles Farming - Growing Saffron in the Cradle of Civilization

:: 00:00

So Victor Kulchar, founder at Velas Farming, thank you so much for joining me on the Vertical Farming podcast.

:: 00:06

Thank you for having me.

:: 00:08

So for the benefit of the listener, where is home for you?

:: 00:12

My home is Slovakia, the heart of Europe, as we call it, or the cheap man's Switzerland. That is where my home is from.

:: 00:20

And did you grow up there?

:: 00:22

Yes, I grew up there but studied abroad, studied in the Netherlands and now I'm living back here. We have the company over here.

:: 00:31

And for anyone that may not be familiar with what it's like to grow up there, what are some of your earliest memories growing up there, your childhood? What was that like?

:: 00:40

Imagine the most typical Eastern European kid life just going to the playground with a lot of kids with a very rundown playground in the big skyscrapers. We call them Paneleky. It's like the Soviet buildings, so just imagine that.

:: 00:56

And what were your thoughts when you were getting through school and then maybe thinking about beyond school, university, or some of the things that were interesting to you?

:: 01:07

Well, as a kid maybe even now I wasn't very interested in school. School was not for me. That's why I'm very happy that I found the studies that I attended as well, which were like applied sciences, so all the tasks were applied. So we had like, for example, let's say we had a marketing class or company with marketing issue came in and based on how we solve the issue, that's how you get rid of it, because I don't work, my mind doesn't work on books. I cannot stand behind books. I like reading now, but, for example, if I had to study for a test or something, no, no go. Pick, no go.

So I didn't really know what to do and I kind of juggled around with a lot of stuff and then I found business as a way to express myself and we stick with it so far.

:: 01:47

What was it about business that was attractive to you?

:: 01:51

I think I'm very competitive and I have hemophilia. That's like the bed my blood doesn't clot well, so I cannot do sports. So I need to get off my competitiveness in some way and I found business, a way to where I can do this.

:: 02:05

What were some of the early experiences you had with business?

:: 02:09

I think since because we started as student entrepreneurs, I think, finding, like, for example, an investor, or having to bring it to a level where people take you seriously, in a way, because you are fighting the people who work in business 24 seven. So if you have to go to school for five hours a day, you are already behind, like there is somebody who puts in those five hours a day in the business. So it's very hard in the beginning to get it running.

:: 02:33

But I think when you get the first like results in the first section and then it's so snowballed into a big thing, Do you remember any relationships you had with maybe teachers, maybe mentors, maybe people who you admired, that were successful in business, that were inspiring for you and then gave you that push to move forward?

:: 02:51

I will have to give a shout out here to Chris. Chris was one of the first guys who took us under his wing. He was the one who also gave us the lab in school that we could use to build our first vertical farm prototype, which was a metal box which was one meter wide, one meter tall, that's it, with two layers, nothing else, two lights. Nothing worked as water pump that worked manually. But he gave us space and freedom to do whatever we wanted, and this is where we started. And then I really liked that.

We went through an incubator, Founders Institute and we had a lot of good mentors. I like it from there because they give you the real view. It's not like because sometimes when you go through people and you tell them like I have this business, oh this is nice, this is beautiful, Great job guys. But these guys really give you the ins and outs. You know they've been in the trenches for some time and some of them exited a lot of companies. Some of them were from the industry, so they already know something that you don't know and they will give you the raw truth and I think sometimes, as an entrepreneur, this is something that you miss very much. So I really value what we gained out of all the mentors, I would say, in Founders Institute. They give you the raw truth. They are not there to tell you okay, this is nice, this is nice. No, they will tell you like no, bye, bye, See you next week.

:: 03:59

They give you the hard medicine.

:: 04:01

Yes, yes, that's what you need sometime, I think.

:: 04:04

Yeah, absolutely so. What is the entrepreneurial culture like in Slovakia?

:: 04:08

So it's not this is why I would like to be born somewhere else, because the 89 entrepreneurship was not allowed under the Soviet Union, so you couldn't own your business. We don't have the network effect like here. For example, in Slovakia you don't have that many alcohol and angel investors. There are like not that many people who are exited companies are looking to help young entrepreneurs to grow up or willing to invest money. We don't have that over here. We have some Western funds, Then we have one or two hour funds, but that's it. So I think this is like the network effect of entrepreneurship is still lacking and I think we still have a stigma over here that the way to do it is to go to school, then you find the job in a corporate and then you retired. So and it's a lot of people are very against entrepreneurship because they are afraid, and I think this is like the strongest belief that we have over here which we tried to break also.

:: 05:02

What's good, because it seems like the way you described it, the normal path for you, the nine to five job for you. It seems like you knew early on that was not going to be who you're fit and that was not going to be your plan.

:: 05:14

Yes, yes, because I did a lot of also jobs like in startups. I also work in corporates. I'm not going to name so I don't especially party in case so I look clean, sleep, but I just didn't like the job like in case on some corporate. It was like the politics over there, you know, like you come up with an idea to do something two times better or two times faster, but just because we have somebody above you that doesn't like it or it has to come like they have to message it was their idea, you get stuck over there on there or then you start. This is why I moved also into startup, because I was working for one startup where I'm not going to say the founders were not like the most clever people and private, though Since I've seen them where the company got. I was like if they can do it, anybody can do it, and this is why we tried as well.

:: 05:56

When did you start to have an interest or were you seeing what was happening in the controlled environment, agriculture, space?

:: 06:04

I think in the Netherlands I'm very happy that I studied here. There's well, I think I would call it the Mecca in Europe for vertical farming and indoor farming. So we went around and in our school also they like offered. There is we are studying Amsterdam, but there is a part of unity university there is in Delft and they have vertical farm over there. So from there it was like awesome. And then we saw just YouTube videos. Me and my founder, we just watched a YouTube video on vertical farming, so let's do this. And then we went with it.

:: 06:33

So talk a little bit about the relationship with your co-founder. You mentioned them. I met him as well at VertiFarm. Yeah, you met him. Yeah, the tall one.

:: 06:42

It's very funny because we used to hate each other in the beginning.

And then we kind of grew Miroslav and then we kind of grew together, and what I really like is like we both are like nerd heads into business. So everywhere we go, the only thing we do is we talk business. Even if you go to conference that we go to after party at 2am, we go home on the bus with our business, nothing else. This is what I like really that we always just think about the business and how we can grow it and what different ways we can try to do this, this. If we do this, what will come out of this? I talked with this guy today. He told me this nice idea so maybe we can implement it. You know stuff like this.

:: 07:20

And so, as you were starting to work together, it seems like you had complimentary skills and maybe he had some skills that you didn't. You had some skills he didn't, and it feels like there's a good combination that you both decided, because it's always a challenge when you decide to take on a co-founder or work together on a business with someone. You could be friends with someone, but then business with someone that's a friend is not always the best result. So what did you see? What was it about the combination of you two together that you felt was working?

:: 07:47

I think it's because we are like complete polar opposites in personalities and also how we work. So you know, there's always like okay, I would imagine it this way, I would imagine it this way. Okay, now we have two things. Let's find the way. Maybe the middle way will be always nicer. So I think this is what works very, very well for us, that we are completely opposite on also how we work. So then a lot of interesting stuff sometimes comes. Sometimes it doesn't work, sometimes it works wonders. So I think this makes all things really place into our hands.

:: 08:17

Can you talk a little bit and tell the story about the idea for Veles Like do you remember where you were when you came up with it?

:: 08:25

So I think we were still in school, actually before we were named green investment groups, but then we were a lot with Miro into crypto projects and all the cool crypto projects were named after Greek gods. So we went through like Greek gods, Roman gods, but all the good gods were already taken. So then we were like, oh wait, we are from Slovakia, let's look up some Slavic gods. And that's how we found Veles is like agriculture and Slavic gods. So we were like, perfect, it's the company, let's do it.

:: 08:51

Yeah, that's a great name. So what was the idea when you first started Veles, and how is it different than what you're currently offering now?

:: 08:59

Oh, it's completely. We started with microgreens. Okay, this is what we wanted to do, like microgreens, like let's do a lot of microgreens and then we'll figure out what we can do out of them. So we moved into like leafy greens, herbs, stuff, like this. And then because in we moved back to Slovakia during COVID and then the whole business model went out of the window because all the restaurants were closed down and we were selling directly to restaurants, and also in Amsterdam or Netherlands it works quite differently because the trends in the customers or the businesses, as also somewhere further with the sustainability part, fresh ingredients, you know here in Slovakia, prices the main factor always. So we were in present somebody a fresher option, usually in 99% the prices is the deciding factor. So we were close, everything was close.

So we didn't know what to do. So we were like looking for crops to grow that have other added value than just being sold to. When we were going through a sabi Jim saying but these crops are very like challenging because they have to. The roots have to grow for certain years in order to before you can sell them. So like can we run a business that cannot create any profit for five years? No, okay, let's go with this out of the window. And we tried, like vanilla, but that's very hard to work wise. And then we came across saffron and also Dr Ardalan, and then we tried a little test and it worked and we found a way to make it better. And this is where we are now.

:: 10:21

So talk about the relationship. What's his full name? Dr Ardalan.

:: 10:24

Dr Ardalan, I don't know. I'm afraid to pronounce his full name because I will mess it up, but we call him Dr G.

:: 10:30

Dr Ardalan yeah.

:: 10:32

And we found him through YouTube. Actually, we were studying saffron production. He has some videos on saffron production on YouTube. And then we reached out to him via LinkedIn and he was like guys, you guys do vertical farming, I do inter farming as well for saffron. You want to try saffron where? Like yes, perfect.

That's why we reached out and he gave us a little book where there were like the basics on how to set it up what temperatures you need, the humidity, the CO to the light, everything, how the cycle looks like, what do you need to prepare, what do you need to buy, what to look out for, and stuff like this.

So, and then we ran a little test and we were, I have to say, pretty successful in it. So that's why we decided to stick with it. And then we found a way to introduce, like multiple harvests into the system as well, so to make it even more profitable, because we are very excited about saffron, because saffron is like the most expensive crop on or not crop spice, I'll say and for us, vertical farming, especially in the beginning, it's quite like cash consuming, that you need to invest a lot in front and it takes also kind of a lot of energy, like electricity wise, so we needed something to basically be able to pay over the investment to the development that we had. So this is why saffron also fit the case for us and this is why we stick with it so far.

:: 11:46

I mean, it sounds like that meeting with Dr G was very important when you started listing all the things that little magical book provided you. It's almost like the secret recipe for success in saffron production because there's so many variables.

Obviously, with all the hundreds of interviews we've had on the show and everyone growing a wide variety of crops, there's obviously specific needs and considerations. When it comes to saffron, I would imagine it's somewhat of a delicate crop as well, and just to have a head start to understand someone who's been there before and also willing to share with you, that really says a lot about his character, that he wasn't feeling like oh, this is super secret or super private, and there must have been something that he saw and you both that made him want to work with you.

:: 12:30

I fully agree, I don't know. I think these guys never sleep, like if I message him, 2 am, 10 am pm, whatever, he always responds like in five minutes and he's always ready like, okay, I'll explain on the call. Let's go, because I don't have an agriculture background. So how we learned, especially at the university we were lucky, chris, what I told you in the beginning. The lab was at Agriculture University and it was like an innovation center, so there were also teachers who studied vertical farming or indoor farming or horticulture or all stuff around.

So in the beginning we just went to all the teachers. We bugged them every day, all day. I was like I need answers on this. How much light do I need? I don't understand this. How do I mix the nutrients correctly? How do I then analyze the water that comes out? How do I do this? How do I do that? How do I adjust the airflow? And they were like, okay, guys, just leave me alone for. But we're like, no, no, no, I need this information. And so this is how we started, because I really didn't know how to grow anything and we just asking questions to people who work with it, and this is why I like Dr Ardalan as well he always gives the answer and he's always willing to share information as well. Very happy for it.

:: 13:36

Yeah, it seems like a lot of the training for you and a lot of the learning is really like learning by doing and just learning by asking questions. Yes, and that seems like how you've gotten a lot of made a lot of progress, because a lot of people just wait or they feel like they have to find someone that could do it for them, but there's nothing like learning firsthand yourself what you need to do, because that's when you really have the hands on experience, exactly.

:: 13:58

I think for a person, or, let's say, entrepreneur, he has to understand what he's going to do. Like you cannot have somebody who never did it before to explain the process to somebody who also never did it before, so then it won't work. And for me as well. Like when I explained with the school, like for me, I have to learn by doing. This is the only way is how my mind works.

Somebody might be different, you know somebody. For somebody, books works perfectly. Okay, I don't judge on that. But for me it's like okay, let's do this. Okay, let's analyze the mistakes, what we can do better, and then do it again and do it again. This is why I was happy with the microgreens in the beginning, because microgreens is like a weekly cycle, so you can go through a lot of cycles in a very fast time. But it's up front. For example, now we basically run two harvests per year, but we are extending to four, but still it's only two harvest per year, so the amount of harvest are minimized compared to what you can do in microgreens, leafy greens and all the other stuff.

:: 14:51

So when I was chatting with you both at VertiFarm it was interesting because you were educating me a little bit about saffron and what people think about saffron, and I explained to you that when I was in Dubai last year I got to go to the Sooks and the markets and you see the saffron piled super high and you just wonder, wow, is it the real saffron? Is that the fake saffron? And maybe because in Dubai they also have next to the saffron like a gold breastplate is probably worth a quarter of a million dollars or something like that. So I must be like high end market or something, but you get good prices there. So how much of this has been for you in terms of an education about the spice itself, the saffron, and then educating people about. You mentioned also this idea of fake saffron that not many people know about. So a lot of this has been a learning process for you as well, I imagine.

:: 15:38

Exactly Like to understand how the market works. Also, it's very important because, for example, for us the market works completely different than, for example, it's in Dubai, in Europe, let's say, because here in the EU most of the saffron is imported, like also to Dubai, but it's closer to India or Iran where it's mainly grown, because the further it gets it always gets from the farmer to like a trader which he sells. So there is always upcharge, upcharge, upcharge, upcharge, upcharge. Still it gets to the final customer. Also, then, with the fake saffron like, there are a lot of frauds because it's the most expensive spice, so there's a lot of frauds going on with the saffron. So, for example, don't buy powdered saffron, because then you cannot tell the purity, or powdered saffron that is mixed together with other spices, because then you really don't know what you are buying. Or if you're buying saffron, then make sure you're buying the threads, make sure they are purely red, make sure they are like a certain size, make sure they have the light color, the light aroma, smell, you know. So this is, I know, in some cases you cannot check before when you buy from the internet, but it's also nice to know when. So, for example, this is also one of our advantages, because in Europe you can mostly buy saffron from traders from outside Europe, but we are a farm, so you're buying straight from farm and I can directly show you, like okay, your saffron comes from this tray and it's been here for this day. And in some cases we can even pinpoint the flowers, like this is the saffron, this flower I can show you right away. So this way we can make it real. So it's also like important to, as you said, like educate the people on what are the differences, because you don't want to pay a high price for something that's low quality if you cannot tell the low quality.

So this is what we also trying to do, and understanding how the whole market works as well. Then, for example, this year there's been a 70% to 50% reduction in the overall supply because this year has been too warm, there's been too many rains in Iran. Like 90% of the production, or 85% production, comes from Iran, and this year was the worst over there in the last 10 years. So there is really low amount of saffron. So, for example, what now the traders do as well? They withhold the saffron supply to Europe because the price are skyrocketing in, like it moved 100% in a week. So they are not willing to sell the saffron because they think the price will go still higher. So they are withholding. So this plays to the price as well.

So you have to understand how the whole market operates in a way to price it correctly and also to show, for example, something we are trying to do is to present it or not present it. We grow high quality product. So this is something that we are trying to reflect as well, for you to know that the product that you get from us, it's high quality and there is also like we are happy to show you the process, how it was grown, why it's high quality. What is the difference between the indoor grown saffron to the outdoor grown saffron, where are the benefits to it and stuff like this. So this is what we try to reflect with the brand as well.

:: 18:17

Yeah, and so how much of that is an education process? Because you mentioned typically high end restaurants. They deal with the trader right or they deal with someone or an importer right For someone who they have a trusted relationship with. So I imagine for you some of the challenge in the beginning is building those relationships in the beginning, because if you're new to market and people have never heard of Ella's like they wonder who you are. Are you going to be here still tomorrow and I depend on you providing a consistent crop? So I imagine that's been some of the conversations you've been having with your partners early on.

:: 18:50

Yes, what we try to do is especially like. So we work in free industries, so gastronomy, so food, cosmetics and pharma. So what they are looking for also it's completely different. So, for example, we started with the gastronomy or the food part because that's like a low hanging fruit. It's not that difficult as in pharma, because in pharma you need to be certified on production, purchasing. The product has to be certified as well. So you have to get, and this cannot be done in one week. It takes first of all costs a lot of money and it takes a lot of time. So, for example, it's easier to get into food and then, for example, in the food you have to also explain to the chef, like here in Slovakia also, the chefs are completely different than in the Netherlands. In the Netherlands they had an idea because, for example, netherlands is more connected in Morocco and some suffering is growing in Morocco, so they have an idea on what's good.

But, for example, we came into a restaurant and the chef we were speaking to the chef on accidents to a friend in Skia the best saffron and it came in like a paper packaging. So this is already a red flat because it's not been packaged properly. And then he was like I bought the best saffron. It's called like the pushal, or supernegin. That's only the red part, but then he unravels it and it's also with the yellow part and the white part. The white part is bad because that's the plant part, it's only basically water. So you know, so this is something that you have to tell him, okay, like you bought this now for this price. But and then also when it comes to explaining them. So, for example, our saffron is more aromatic and is able to color more. So, even though, like it in the beginning it costs a bit more, I would say you can cook, let's say, twice or three times the amount of dishes from it, because it has, like it's more potent, it's more aromatic, it's better coloring. So you know. So this is something that you need to also explain to some of them.

But what I noticed also, like around the world, like it works completely different, because they're all educated on different levels. So you have to kind of pinpoint on where they stand and then move from that. So is it? We move it from the basic sub, or do they already have some kind of knowledge? Because, for example, in a few restaurants that we work with already like from farmers with Iran directly, but still the saffron somehow doesn't come in a very good quality, you know. So this is, you have to understand. There are also the pimpons, like what they struggle with and, for example, because a few problems that use also said, like the consistency in quality. So I'm getting saffron from a farmer from Iran, but every time I buy the color and aroma is different, so then my recipe is different in the end, and this then I cannot build what I would like to build. So this is something that we can also deliver for them.

:: 21:17

Yeah, it sounds like it's a lot of education. Obviously, as much as they would like to Trust that they have a reliable source if they're coming or sourcing anything directly from Iran, for example, you know you're at the mercy of the shipment and do you know what's happening during the course of the shipment? Do you know what's happening? You don't know what's happening on the farm because you can't be there and you can't be on site.

p that you're getting the ISO: 3632

:: 22:13

I agree, like for us pharma.

We would be the ideal industry that we want to go into, because I think this is where most of the benefit of the indoor farm of Saffron indoor saffron farm will shine through, because we are able to control all the inputs into the, into the flower, so that we are able to increase the like.

There are free chemicals, crots in pyrro protein and saffron now, which are also important for the pharma, and we are able to get them over the threshold that they need. Basically for it for them to consider, because there is a lot of research now with saffron that is able to, for example, help with stress, really for better sleep, or in some cases with they use it in I think it's called dementia I don't know now I don't know the English word, but it's used in a lot of or it's used as a bio stimulant or bio activator. I think that this is working in some cases. So they are finding a lot of cool ways that they can be used or they are putting into supplements, and this is something that I think the our saffron can shine the most.

:: 23:09

How much of this has been an education process for you, because you have to. You've able to speak eloquently about all the benefits for a chef in gastronomy and understanding like consistency when it comes to flavor and presentation, because that's really big for them, right? They want to, I'm sure some of these high-end restaurants. They have to have a consistent product every time. And then you have to shift your mind to how does someone who's in pharma think about the benefits. They want something different, maybe not the visual presentation, but like the actual chemical composition of this, and then you think nine. Then you switch to cosmetics. They may be more interested in consistency with the color or other things, and you've had to Educate yourself on each of these different Lines and be able to speak their language in a way that they can see the benefits of working with you.

:: 23:53

Exactly this, like you just pinpointed, exactly like you have to understand what the buyer is looking for.

So, like in the food, it's more of the physical properties of the saffron, as you said, and then in the cosmetic and the pharma, it's more of the chemical property.

So you, you have to basically understand what the buy once, and this is what you something yet that you cannot learn on the first try and you just go with. You ask a lot of people around and also I speak with a lot of people in the industry quality control managers, suppliers or even farmers here in Europe, outside of Europe, in India, iran, even Kazakhstan and Morocco, spain, greece, italy. So you know, I try to speak with all of them and I'm happy that a lot of them are willing to share their Experiences and their knowledge as well, and we kind of do like I give you this, I give you this, and then you are Doing, you are able to learn through also their experiences, like, okay, now I work with this customer, I know I want to move into this industry, this is what they're looking for. So, okay, I can just copy this and then I will see how it works and then move it and basically, on our terms, yeah, it sounds obviously in terms of culture, and Iran is Considered by many the birthplace of civilization as well.

So it's talk about history and we talk about thousands and thousands of years.

:: 25:05

You know there's a lot of cultural history and cultural relevance in that part of the world and experience in working with the spice like this. It was probably one of the many spices traded on the spice roads and you think about, you know, like everything, the spice trail. You know there's a lot of history going back there, so it's interesting to see how you can have conversations with people who have maybe, you know, family going back, maybe multiple generations, who were grew saffron or something you know, to get to pull some of that cultural Experience and history into what you're doing and have an understanding. You know, because these people have, they have been doing this for a while and they have a lot to teach.

:: 25:41

I'm sure, if you ask the right questions, I have a farmer friend from Iran and they have like a 10 generation farm already. Well, she's like nuts, like 10 generations of people focus on one thing. But, as you said, like it's a very awkward, like Asian spice because, for example, cleopatra used to swim in like milk and saffron Baps. Or they say like it's used to have a saffron bed.

You know so it goes way Over our time, like more way back. So it's very nice to also see like the history behind it and also I think this is something that has to be Translated in the message like, okay, this is where it comes from, but now we put like a new, innovative spin on it, you know. So now we this is why we do it in this way. So this is not like we want to take it away from them, we just want to put our twist on it and do it, try to do it ourselves so talk a little bit about the experience you've had as Leading this company, with you as the CEO and Mirzlava's the CEO.

:: 26:36

These are, I would imagine, first-time Positions for you and to be growing not only as an entrepreneur but also as a leader, because now you're building a team. I see you've got some employees. You've been working with advisors now, so what's that experience been for you like personally in terms of your development?

:: 26:52

It's a lot of up and downs. I'll say you know, this is what. Something I like about Entrepreneurships? Because one day you can feel like you know everything in the world and the second day, right, it's not working at all. I'm supposed to pay, you know, blah, blah, blah. So but it's a lot of like learning.

I'm very happy that we are able to build like the culture, the setup in the company division for the company, how we would like to imagine it, and there is like, okay, we of course discuss with with more people, like, okay, is this something that makes sense? What do you say with this idea? But I'm very happy and it's like also what you said. Like in the leadership law, right now we have employees under us that I want to also reflect on. Like how I would For them to understand how I imagine the company to run, how to structure their relationships. Also, like the first time hiring somebody first time firing somebody first time going into, like an investor meeting. It's all a learning curve that you have to go and you also have to understand, like the languages of each Domain that you go into. So if you are speaking with an investor, this like a completely different language, that cup table, blah, blah, blah. This, all that the normal person doesn't go through Orances, bridge round pre-seed around, like you know. Now, all this, and then you go into, like, the more business side. Then you were learning sales, like the first time we went to a restaurant I didn't know what a sales pitch is. So build this up from a ground up to and to make it work. Or then marketing, like, how does marketing work? Do any push marketing? Do I need pull marketing? You know, what do I focus on then? For me, I run the operation. So you know, okay, do I have for the southern harvest? Do I have enough staff? It's the process set up in a way that it works. Am I missing? Is that? Are there some flaws? We will now another one.

This is like is the vertical farm running correctly? I is there, for example, temperature differences between the topest floor and the lowest for if yes, how can I fix it? You know, so they can juggling all these balls, but this is what I like that every day it's something new, every day it's something challenging and every day is a new challenge that you tackle head on, and every day you spin the roulette. You have 24 hours, so how you spend the 24 hours and it will know small incremental steps will lead to. Even the Rome Wasn't built in a day, so you cannot expect to build a unicorn in one day to a week. So it takes time and you have to also understand the business you are in. So, for example, a vertical or farm is run away, completely different to it, and a software company or crypto company or a social media agency. So getting to understand all this it's like it's a whole learning curve that you have to go through. But this is what I like about business, so this is why it's fun for me.

:: 29:20

How have your relationships with your advisors helped you Cover some of that ground and learn some of these new things that aren't natural for you at first?

:: 29:30

So I think I'm very happy because we got more of like I'm not gonna call them all the guys because they are not old, but they already been through something, so they have the experience of something that we missed as young first-time Entrepreneurs coming out of school and so still finishing school. But this is something that everybody also like to speak to a lot of people who already To identify the person who already been through the route. It doesn't have to be like they be throughout, like now in half a year, but they already went through the route, because if they already did it and they succeeded in it, they they have a formula in mind that's going to work. So then, okay, I'll ask them about the formula and to understand and also finding the correct advisors, because there's also something I think you have to align with in the company, because if you get advisors that think too much into the different side, you know, then there is too many, you're trying to focus on too many things, you know. Get them aligned in one vision and get those advisors that would benefit the company you the most.

So identify the people that went through this stuff or are able to help you in a way in the industry or the domain that you are Operating in and or have connections in.

So, for example, before we had advisors just for connections in some cases, in a way that we worked with them in a way that was very nice as well, but they were more useful in connecting with us, with people from the industry, which was very nice as well, you know.

And then you get new people in and you also have to understand, like when you do you grow up of the advisor to take on the new advisor, because this is like with the sea level management or a CEO, even like now we will try to do it our most, but I think then there comes a time for everybody where you have to step down and give it to somebody who knows how to run.

Like there is a, as they like sometimes say, there is a CV CEO who funds the company, then takes it from a zero to a million, from million to ten million, from ten million to hundred million years. So you know you have to understand also, like your limitations, your weaknesses, where you are good at as a person, and then try to juggle and find the way, do it. So this is something we have to. We try to do with the company, to find the right people for the right time that we can Basically help us to make the next step. And then, basically, you go step by step by step and you arrive into the destination where you want it to go.

:: 31:34

Yeah, I think what's interesting you have a really clean and really nice looking website and I think what's also important is that you have a roadmap which shows that you have a vision. You know you talked a little bit about your pre-seed round that, the pilot plant, the certification that you're working on, but even this plan you have it listed as Q2, q3, 2024 that you have a plan to get into these markets cosmetics markets, the farmer markets and then you even have a plan even going into 2025, for Automation through AI and robotics as well. So it's interesting that you have this forward-looking Vision of the future and maybe can you speak a little bit to that Like why do you think it's important to have that roadmap in place for you as a team?

:: 32:12

For us, you know, it works like the carrot on the stick. I think you know there's something that you need to chase or something that you need to basically work towards, and we always try to look like, okay, let's also discuss the short term and the long term goals. But the long term vision is like, okay, well, where would be or where would we like to see the company in the furious. Like, okay, now we'll go through this stage of the company, but where do we want to develop it? And further, because then you also need like, when it comes to strategy, you need to plan it out in a way, so it makes sense. And now we so you scout out basically and we see that, for example, for vertical farming, like AI and robotics will be also like the future it's getting cheaper, more available or easy to make as well. So we see that it can help a lot because, for example, saffron is a very labor-intensive crop. So, if we can automatize the process now, for example, the billing process, like a lot of people are focusing now on the harvest thing, but the main thing, or where the main pain point is, it's in the billing process. So this is something that you know, you learn to understand and you're okay if we can do this. This is like changing into the whole industry, you know, like nobody has ever been able to do this. So this is something that we aim for the moon and worst case you will hit the stars.

So we really like to also not look into the short term but the long term and like create something that makes sense and the company can grow towards, because then also, like the hiring process, you can adjust towards it. And then also like, for example, when you raise another round of financing, then okay, if it's only vertical farm, it's completely different when you have technology involved, you know, because then you can Somehow fuse into like a technology company. This is like also the involvement of the company, like, for example, a lot of vertical farms, in the beginning where a vertical farm and then they moved into like a Technical company and then they moved into like a maintenance company because they are running so many vertical farmer and the world that they have to know how to maintain it. So you have to understand the evolution and the way you want to take the company further and, for example, we would like to also introduce new crops.

You know, have farms all over the world, because the goal or division for us is to grow crops where it was not possible before, or at least, if it's not possible, then do it better and localize them in a better way, so make it more efficient. This is all because I think the food crisis will also like Understanding the trends that are ongoing in the world as well. Like the food crisis, the water crisis, a lot of people, urban areas you know stuff like this, so this will play into your hand as well, and if you can adjust your business, that will basically like the trends are like a wave and you are a surfboard, and so they will move you into the direction as well. So this is something that we try to understand as well and then base the company and the vision and the future for it, in a way.

:: 34:47

So can you talk a little bit about? You have the roadmap of what you're trying to get done over the next couple of years, and so what has it been like for you now in terms of the clients that you serve now or the partners that you work with? Can you talk a little bit about who you're serving now and who you're working with on a day-to-day basis?

:: 35:04

So now we're going to work with food, gas room, so a lot of restaurants, and now, as we said, like this, because we are getting the ISO. So now we are getting the first ISO. They're actually coming in a week. Then we send it out to the subcontract to get tested. So we are waiting for the lab results. So this is working with I'm not going to call it like domains and industries, but to make it further in a way that we unlock the next step for us. So, as discussed, like pharmaceuticals and cosmetics, so for this we need to get certified on the production level and the processing level. So now we'll have the production level certified. Ok, we need to work on the process level certification. So for this, ok, do I need a lab? Do I need a specific space? Ok, what are the work requirements? Because, for example, now when we had the big harvest, we had a lot of people at the farm. And then, for example, what we found out in, like, when they're working with delicate stuff, everybody needs an office chair, everybody needs a tiltable table.

So this is stuff that you are not going to know until they come and audit. You see the process, like, ok, now, now we did the drying in another company, but now we want to do the drying at ours. Ok, now, what do we need to buy Then? It is certified, or is it the certification relying? Like, does it make sense for us to buy, do we need this machine, this machine? So you are working with a lot of stuff in one place and you are trying to see the best way to move.

But I think again I'll go back to that we discuss or we bounce on the us with people, like also in the industry, also in the certification level, also in the market level, to see, like, ok, if you will see that, for example, for us to get the second level of certification on the processing part will take us, let's say, a year, half a year, because then, for example, with the pharmaceutical companies, they send an audit as well, like it's not enough to get only ISO certified, but they will send their own audit as well. And what can we do to prepare? Like, for example, we work with AVEF, so can we get some certification, like there is a sustainable indoor farm certification, if that helps us. Or can we? For example, now in the EU they don't allow us to market as organic because it's not growing in soil.

So can we do something about this, because this will help us a little bit, for example, the food market. So you know, we're juggling a lot of these things around and see where you can make the most progress in the short time, but still aligning it with the long-term vision is, I think, the most part yeah.

:: 37:18

And it definitely sounds like you've been giving us a lot of thought and you've been thinking about the future steps, because even for something like a certification, it takes six months, takes a year. You still have to keep the lights on, you still have to keep business going, but also plan for the future. So it sounds like you have to have your short-term goals, long-term goals and make sure that everything is still aligned. So one of the questions I'd like to ask is what is a tough question you have had to ask yourself recently?

:: 37:44

Tough question Am I the right person to do this job? It's like because sometimes I think ego gets in a way to somebody and if you have a lot of successful day, in a way it can get somehow over your head and then being able to understand, like OK, where your weaknesses are. If a person can do it better, even though it's not the way that you would imagine it, step back and take a breather, like OK, is this the right move to make? And it's like chess, I think, understanding the chess game. So there is a lot of different moves and sometimes you don't have the good move, but you still have to make the best move possible.

So I think this is like now we've been challenged as well. So when we started, we moved into saffron. So these are the areas. I think this would be the hardest question, because then you need to find somebody new for the job as well. That day's time, do I have the time? Basically stuff like this. So understanding stuff like this, like what is the most needed now as well, but still keeping in mind where I want to go in the future.

:: 38:43

And also keeping, maybe for yourself as a leader, educating yourself on how to be a better leader, how to be a better manager. Those are things you need to do in addition to the business. You need to always be looking at ways you can grow professionally and personally as well.

:: 38:58

Yes, I fully agree. For me it's like I would not my employees or I don't like to call employees, they are like partners. We work together. We are all on the same level. For me, we are all the same. Even I'm chief, whatever I'm, from cleaner to the director, I'm everything. So I'm on the same level with everybody.

These I would like to work, because I think then the process works much faster. And there's like, if I do something, or if I have to train somebody in something, I don't expect them to do something that I wouldn't do. So this is something that I like to do. But also then speaking with people who are in leadership roles on certain challenges that you have as a leader, like setting up the culture, how to motivate people correctly, how to show them that they can progress in the company, that they not only come into the company like OK, you will do this, but show them that there is a future in the company. Like, if we can grow, we grow together. Like it's not only me who learns, it's also you who learns, and if you are a good team, then we can take it a long way.

:: 39:55

Yeah, that's a great attitude and I think it's helpful when people who are coming into a new industry feel like they're supported by management and that you see everyone rises together, and I think that's positive steps to make sure you're building a culture that's going to grow, because if you show them the vision too right, they can see what the roadmap is, they can see what the plan is and maybe they're coming into it. Some of them may be coming into this industry for the first time, into vertical farming, right from other jobs, and they're taking a chance with you as well. So I think when you can clearly articulate the vision as a leader, I think it really inspires your team.

:: 40:26

I think communication is the most important part in this, like, I think, keeping in clear and honest communication with everybody, and I always like to hear ideas of people who are maybe not even knowledgeable in those areas, because, you never know, they might think outside the box and come up with something that's like, completely like, because now, for example, we work in operations and so, for example, me and Davideh Davideh is our farm manager and we work on the farm processes, so we are stuck in our line of work, but then we had a sales guy who is from the Netherlands and he came to the farm to visit over the harvest and well, and he just randomly brainstormed a very nice idea to improve the process.

So these are the random findings that you wouldn't be able to do in a way when also I don't like when they are not able to express themselves, like if something is not working, tell me right away, because the longer we keep it on to the lead, the worse it gets. So this is something that we try to represent, also like open communication. Ok, let's go, we grow together, we move together, we work as one team, we don't leave anybody behind, and then we go to war together.

:: 41:29

That's a great mindset mentality. So it'd be hard to have a conversation about vertical farming without talking about the elephant in a room capex, electricity costs and this is something that's top of mind and it's things that has caused other farms to fail, and so I'm wondering how you think about this in terms of growth, how you think about managing all these different expenses that are really important, and it's something you don't have to deal with in Open Ag, but it's really like you can't start a farm nowadays without putting a lot of thought into your capex, so I'm wondering how you think about those challenges on a day-to-day basis.

:: 42:05

I think for a vertical farm, your most important thing is to understand the numbers, how much the like. Ok, for electricity, sometimes you can net solar, sometimes there are options that you can bring this down. But understanding really the numbers and the devil is in the details mostly and for also most of the vertical farms like, ok, now if, for example, also to being able to understand if something happens into the market which also, for example, reduces the price in the crop that I'm growing, or how then it will affect my overall profitability. Will I be still profitable? Because a lot of farms are not profitable in like some farms are not profitable in like four years, five years, they need longer times to get profitability. So you really have to get this down and understand what do I need to do in order to basically come up at the plus in the end? And is it like electricity, like what's set up to use as well? Because now I think in the industry there are a lot of options that are like I'm not going to call them overpriced, but you can still get the same result with something that is way, way cheaper, like you don't have to get the most high-tech farm right away. You know, start, simply Start slowly, like get some, like I'm not going to collect a prototype, you don't have to develop your own thing, like your own farm, and to connect it, to understand everything. But you don't need AI, you don't need robotics right away, you don't need full process automatization right away. So this is something that, for example, I have you as well, like understand where I can start and then where I can build upon, when still taking into consideration like my cost, like understanding also how many people it takes to run a firm. So, for example, this is one challenge that we are now doing the Safran Harvest, because we were planning to having like the 10 to 20 people will be the most, but then in the big harvest, we needed 50 people a day, you know.

So now, where do I get this? Like? Does it still fit the budget? You know. So, being prepared for the, also like the unexpected, and then just improving step by step on understanding how everything works together. And then, okay, like if I'm in trouble, if I switch off the light for the day and hour earlier, how does this affect the quality of the crop or the result? And, okay, if I have to do this, then what is the result on it. Do I need one person to run the farm? Do I need five people to run the farm? You know, do I need the biggest ECU or do I need? Am I okay with running with fans, or do I need sensors in all the trays, or is it like spread out? Spread out works with well, what lights to use, you know. So this is all that you have to take into consideration and I'll go back again, like your numbers. If the numbers don't make sense, then there is nowhere to go.

:: 44:30

Sounds like there's a lot of moving parts that you're keeping on top of, and that's your. Obviously. That's your responsibility too, I'm sure there's always something to think about and always something to tweak a knob to turn, a sensor to watch, and so many moving parts but, it must be exciting to your learning on the job as well, I would imagine.

:: 44:48

Yes, a lot. Every day is a new page in the book.

:: 44:51

So how would the experiences that the conference has been? I know we met at Vertifarm Was that? Have you even gone to conferences on a regular basis and do you find those experiences valuable?

:: 45:00

We've been to a lot, actually, not only in Europe we went to for example, I was on like a startup bootcamp in Taiwan, where we also ended in a conference. We went to Warsaw, to Paris, to Dortmund, but in Slovakia as well. We tried to go because there's like your I say like your space to meet new people that you wouldn't be able to meet before, companies that you wouldn't. For example, this usually we went to like business conferences. Then we went to some ingredients conferences, because this is where our buyers and, let's say, customers are as well, like in the ingredients one. But then also I like Vertifarm because it's like okay, now I get to see the part of the indoor farming part, or this part of the world as well, where you meet a lot of people with companies that have different solutions that might also help you in a way. So is there a way to partner up? Is there a way that I can collaborate with them in a way to improve also their company but also my company, that where sometimes there is like the crosses, where something from like we grow completely different crops but in the end like okay, we will have this, the solution for each other. But I think it's under like important to go and to present yourself in a way you know always come.

I'm not going to say like prepare, but clearly communicate your idea. You know, being able to describe me, the people I always, we always try to. Every time, before we go, we run up the map, we mark up the companies that we want to visit, we do, worst case, we do a little research and then sometimes you will even see the person. So you know directly who the person is, where is it, and you can then basically adjust the questions to them. So to understand, like okay, am I speaking with the CEO now, then I can ask him more in depth questions on more things, but if I'm running only with the guy who is a sales agent, then okay, he will be unable from the product side. So then, speaking to people you're making like present also is something that I like at conferences, because there are a lot of people that you would not meet otherwise and you would have not. Maybe you would meet them online. So this is where you can present your company, get fresh ideas.

:: 46:57

Yeah, and it's how we met, and thanks to Tia at the yeah, shout out to Tia. She connected us. It's really nice to, and that's the only time you sometimes get those experiences. I mean, I wouldn't have met you guys, or even even known of you.

:: 47:11

I haven't traveled across the world to Germany, so I'm always.

:: 47:15

I think it's important for me as also to tell the story of what's happening in the U as well with vertical farming, because we know we have a lot of countries in North America, south America, but then there's a lot of exciting things happening on the EU side and I'm really excited to try to make it to at least one international conference on that side at least once a year to hear what's happening firsthand from people. So I really want to thank you for coming on.

I'm glad we got connected. I was really excited to tell your story about a crop or a spice that we haven't covered on this show before saffron, which is a I would call it a very sexy and very intriguing spice to work with. So it's fun to hear, like the background about it. So if you think about it, Victor, like if I had to ask you a very simple question about what gets you out of bed every morning, how would you answer that?

:: 48:03

I think it's the discipline that gets me out of the morning. I think that's the most important part, because there are going to be days when you're not going to feel like doing anything and it's those days when you do the little amount that will count in the end. I think for me it's like I love my job, I like business a lot, I love what I do and just wake me up in the morning Like, for I don't know how many months now, I wake up without a lack of background in the morning. I'm ready, let's go. New day, new challenges. I'm looking forward to what's going to happen today.

So do we hit the jackpot or do we lose everything? So every day is a new day, and I think that it's like the discipline and the continuity that count the most for success and thepreneurs, so this is something that I would like to stick with then. So this is something that gets me up in the morning. I'm having fun, I'm having a class, I can meet people like you as well. It's awesome.

:: 48:50

If the saffron doesn't work out, you could bottle your energy and then maybe sell that, because I think a lot of people would love to have your energy in your enthusiasm. So I've been leaving a few minutes at the end of these conversations for any messages that you have for your colleagues in the vertical farming space. You know, when you think about your peers, your fellow founders, people who are running vertical farming companies or people who are in the industry you've met a lot of these folks at these conferences Is there anything that you have specifically that comes to mind in terms of like a message you'd want to say to them?

:: 49:22

I think the message with Revolt Brown, like now recently we heard a lot of farms are closing down because of also, like the electricity prices, or where they missed just the technology or the product or it haven't been able to achieve profitably or it didn't work out.

So I think, but I would encourage everybody to just keep going the most that they can, so to fight the longest.

I think this is the message I would at least like to get increased in the industry, because I think we are making, in the end, we are making the world a better place.

Now we can produce crops in a more efficient way, more healthy way for the people which are, which is also more sustainable for the planet. So it's better overall and I think if everybody who works in the industry has, like this idea in the mind, that they are trying to improve the well-being of human beings, then I think it's very nice and I'm looking very forward where we can take it like, even though vertical farming is it's been around for a few, but it's not been around for a few there is still a lot of ways to move it, accelerate it forward. So I'm very excited of what's coming in the like the next 10 years, let's say, for vertical farming, where a lot of us including us, including other companies that I follow that I don't know yet that the world, what they will found like the next breakthroughs let's say cereals, you know, and stuff like this. So this will be very cool to look up into the future. So I encourage everybody to not to give up and just keep moving forward, step by step, day by day.

:: 50:44

Very inspiring words of wisdom. Thank you so much and I appreciate you coming on again. I'm glad we were able to get connected. I'm really glad to be able to tell your story. So Vela's Farming is the website Vela's Farmingcom. Anywhere else do you want to send folks to connect with you or learn more? That's the best place to be.

:: 51:00

I think that is the best place to end.

:: 51:02

And then, worst case, instagram, but I prefer LinkedIn more on the professional side, Okay, yeah, so we'll make sure we have that link in the show notes as well. Thanks again for your time. I really appreciate you sharing your story with us today.

:: 51:14

Thank you and for inviting me.