S10E124 Joe Swartz / AmHydro - The Evolution of Farming Through a Hydroponic Lens

:: 00:00

So, joe Schwartz, vice president of Amhydro, thank you so much for joining us on the Vertical Farming podcast.

:: 00:07

Thanks very much for having me, harry, I appreciate it.

:: 00:10

So, for the benefit of the listener, do you want to share maybe the behind your initial outreach and maybe how you got connected with the show, or if you've been listening for a while?

:: 00:20

Yeah, I've actually been aware of the podcast. For quite some time I've been in the industry now 39 years. It'll be 40 years in January, Wow yeah. So it's been an interesting journey. I'm a lifelong farmer and back in 1984, Incorporated, designed and built my first hydroponic greenhouse and incorporated that into my normal farming operations and they've basically been running ever since.

:: 00:45

If you can recall that far back when, as you were growing up, was it in the family that you always have an interest in farming, or talk a little bit about the origin story there. I'm curious.

:: 00:55

Sure, yeah, I grew up in western Massachusetts on a small family farm and we only had basically it's a 30 acre farm and my uncle and father were potato farmers, potato and onion farmers and my uncle, who had done all the pesticides spraying, he passed away prematurely due to illnesses related to pesticide exposure and my dad had a lot of physical injuries. And so as a young guy I was very interested. I really loved farming, but I was looking at some of the limitations, for as a lifelong endeavor and knowing that we had essentially a small farm, I would probably be running the farm pretty much by myself. I wanted it possible to grow without using any type of pesticides. I knew water availability was going to be an issue and there were a lot of economic realities that I had to look at.

Island Research Center in the: 1960

:: 02:46

As you started to get an awareness of, I guess, what I'll describe as the power or the. What was it about hydroponics specifically, as you were being educated on it, understanding what you did about traditional ag, and what did you see in terms of the possibilities at that time?

:: 03:02

Well, what you know drew me to it was the idea that I could grow on a small scale. I could grow pesticide free or using maybe more biological and non-chemical methods. I could do it on a small scale and I could do it all year round. And I've always been attracted to growers who focus on high quality. You know, you can be a commodity grower, and that's great, but specialty growers who are growing very high quality products, that to me seem like the future that I wanted to pursue.

So, as I began growing, of course there was a very steep learning curve. There was a lot of, a lot of mistakes made, and but what I found was is that the process, that the biological process that make up traditional farming are no different, and I'm sure later on in the podcast we'll talk a lot about technology, and that's where kind of some of the technological approaches that we see today miss the mark, and so what I always was centered around was all the different physical and natural process that goes into farm production, whether we're talking about seasonal production, that changes in weather throughout the year, light levels, etc. But plants are plants and providing environmental parameters, providing certain nutrition and irrigation and providing plant culture methods and ways of taking care of the plants. It's all very universal. It's all the same. So when people look at CEA and traditional ag is different, they're really not. We're using different tools, but the process is exactly the same.

:: 04:37

You've obviously have varied and storied career in CEA. What are some of the highlights? You know, when you think about you, know some of the positions you've held. You know you were director of farming it's got vegetables and then you've started to do some consulting work. But you know, not necessarily without having to go through the entire resume, but as you think back, and sometimes when the years go by, it's hard for us to think back and look at the accomplishments, and so this might be an opportunity to do that and just think about. You know what are some of those highlights as you think about your career, as we move into, like you know, a conversation about what's happening present day. But I'm curious what's most alive for you?

:: 05:11

Well, to be honest, never. When I first got started, I never envisioned doing anything but being a farmer. Really.

I had no interest in really an outside work. I had no interest in anything other than operating my farm, growing food for the local community, raising my family, doing all that. So, and for quite some time for all at least 10 years that's all I did. I had to basically deliver, dye by my ability to grow food, sell it and take care of the economic component of it, and what I had found, though, is that people who were looking at getting into the industry and people who are already in the industry were coming to me for advice, because, specifically, I was a farmer and I was a grower. I couldn't believe how many times people would say hey, I'm looking into this hydroponic stuff and I'm talking to a company that's trying to sell me equipment, or I talk to the people at my local university and they have an academic knowledge, but you actually do it, and so I realized that there was a very big need in the industry for that practical, usable information. Anyone that knows me knows I like to keep things very simple and very basic, and the idea of CEA controlled environment agriculture really, again, it's not about technology. It's about taking the equipment, the tools, the methods, the technologies that we have available and farming with them. So it doesn't matter how that's done, as long as the productivity and the economics are aligned. I always tell people, even to this day, when they're looking to get into CEA, some people are looking at the technological aspect of it, some people are looking for academia or research, and I always say I don't care what. You're a farmer, welcome to farming, you're a farmer. And so that and I've asked people many times I said what do you think it takes to be a farmer? What do you do as a farmer? Well, we grow plants and we do it in sufficient quality and quantity that we can sell in the marketplace and obtain a reasonable profit or a reasonable outcome. And regardless of what we do in CEA, we have to align those tools to do that. And so it pushed me to realize that there was that need in the industry for that type of information and that approach.

So I started consulting, I started working for growers while still running my own farm, so to augment my farming income and, incidentally, with the just running the greenhouse operation, which was only a little over 4,000 square feet, so about a tenth of an acre I put myself through school, put my wife through school, got married, raised a family, took care of my father, and so the economic output of a facility like that, while some would say it was modest, it provided me a lot better returns than I would have with the traditional farming. So a lot of people looked to me for advice how to go about doing that and so that you know, led me to running a consulting business, for which I still consult to this day, but that really took on a whole life of its own. I loved working with growers. I've been fortunate. I've traveled all over the world and I've worked with growers, very large high-tech growers to very small low technology growers, mom and pop, backyard operations and everything in between. So working with them, sharing knowledge usually when I bring knowledge to them I end up getting at least that much back. I learned so much from other growers and that really appealed to me and I saw that's what will take, that's what will move this industry forward, because obviously CEA, especially here in America, it was behind Europe, behind Canada, and I saw the future of CEA becoming more important in the American food production puzzle and so I Really pursued that a lot more. And then, of course, that led to a few different positions, working, as you say with sky vegetables. I did some consulting for farmed here and over the years, I also was consulting for growers who worked with am hydro. I knew the founder of the company, michael Christian, and so did some work for some of his growers, and I always really appreciated the approach that am hydro took, because am hydro, like me, was focused on the idea that to move this industry forward, growers have to have Knowledge and experience and practical, usable information and high quality practical equipment, and so over the years, we always maintain a close relationship.

And then in: 2015

:: 10:57

Thanks for that in depth Trip down memory lane. I'm sure some of those are fond memories and I'm curious, as you think about your career and the people that have had an influence on your life and people that have helped you, either from a mentorship perspective or people that are in a leadership position. Can you think about some of those relationships and how they've helped you through the education process and or even just on the job training?

:: 11:20

Yeah, most of it was on the job training and most of the really good and valuable information I have didn't come from successes, that came from failures, and so I always joke with clients that you can learn from my mistakes or Tell them you know, don't do this and then ask me how I know that I did. Obviously, working with dr Shippers, I didn't have a chance to work a direct. I've worked with amazing farmers, of course, my dad primarily and a lot of the farmers here in the community and in the Hampshire County area where our farm is. But in the industry I didn't have any real direct contact with people. I basically had to learn on my own and by doing. But of course I read a lot dr Howard Russia's work, dr Merle Jensen's work Though those are people who I fortunately had a chance to meet dr Jensen a few years back but most of these people I only knew through their writings.

But there was so much amazing information out there so they really did mentor me. They didn't know it, but they were certainly Providing a lot of great information. And then, of course, as I consulted, like I said, I learned probably as much as I gave, and that's really, to me, the great learning experience that I continue to this day, but not a day doesn't go by where I'm not learning a lot, which, of course, is to me. It's that's the most amazing part of the industry is how much great information is floating around and working with other growers, so While going out there and trying to help a particular grower, for example, improve their production, it just makes me so much better as well. So I'm Constantly learning from other people, seeing what people are doing right, seeing what people are doing wrong.

:: 13:04

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I'm curious if is there anything that it's a special consideration. I grew up in New York as well, so I'm very familiar with the Northeast and then the weather there as well, and so, and you having grown up there as well, are there specific considerations that you learned to work with or In partnership with in terms of the elements or just how you, how you think about CEA? And I imagine, because obviously different parts of the country have different climate concerns and there's different benefits related to CEA, and so I'm curious, over the years, if you've developed or notice anything Specific about that part of the country.

:: 13:39

Yeah, and and climactic and Geographical considerations are very important. To this day, I still have people say, oh, you grow in a greenhouse, so you don't have to worry about the weather. I worry about the weather every minute of every day. So, yeah, the specific climate that anyone would be in for growing, and or the geography, there are a lot of things to consider. So one of the big myths in this industry, and, unfortunately, especially in the indoor vertical farming industry, is that we see this notion that, well, you can set up this farm, this is the model, you can set this up anywhere, and that's really not the case.

The external environment the is wherever you are looking to produce is so critically important in terms of your selection of technologies, equipment, your methods, for example. So, from the perspective of the climate, we have a lot of things that we have to look at, but also our geography, you know, are we in a rural area where we're selling direct to consumers, or are we distributing our products great distances? Are we locating facilities along a shipping route or are we locating our production in an urban area, for example? So those are very important considerations that going are going to designing a facility, as well as even when you are operating Facilities. So if you're operating an existing facility, what's happening around you and where you are is really important to both how you operate, what technologies to use and how you then use those technologies to provide the outcomes that you're looking for.

So, yeah, when someone would come to us, we have to look at the climate and in an area like in the Midwest where you may have very hot summers and very cold Winters, so you kind of have the double whammy of having to look at both. But whether I'm working on a project in Florida where we're looking at the heat and humidity, or British Columbia, where temperatures, humidities and low light levels are going to be very, very big. So all the Considerations that go into CEA are not universal. We have to look at each individual one, and that's one of the things that I think, as we understand more about that, that's gonna be one of the big factors that help move this industry forward.

:: 15:56

I'm curious having had all those conversations with first-time farmers experienced farmers who need some help with their farm, do you notice a trend? Is there a common thread when it comes to farmers getting started in terms of mistakes that they make or things that you've noticed over the years that are things first-time farmers should avoid, so that they're not making the same mistakes either that you made or that you've seen on other farms? Because we do get, you know, people Reaching out to me occasionally and saying, hey, I'm been loving the show getting started my first farm and it's been really helpful. So I'm always trying to provide as much context and share the experience of my guests, especially with someone like you with such a long resume experience and you've probably seen it all when it comes to what to do and what not to do when getting started.

:: 16:40

Well, that's a great question. So if someone is coming from outside the industry looking to get in the industry one of the most common mistakes I see and it's understandable. But there's so much noise in this industry, there is so much media attention placed on certain technologies and even on technology itself for technology's sake, and If you are looking to produce, operate a business where you are growing high quality crops and you are doing so at economically positive outcomes, you have to look at the right methods for your application. And, as I had said earlier, that kind of universal notion that this is the one system that will perform Well for you everywhere is certainly not the case, and I constantly have people that come to me and they see something online and they say, oh, I just saw where people are building vertical farms on ships and they're sailing around the ocean. What a great idea. And when you look at that, you have to. First of all, there is ample evidence. The industry has already evolved enough and is mature enough where you can see successes and failures. So it's easy to get kind of seduced by something you see online as far as technology. But a deeper dive will show you which ones have worked well and which ones have not.

Because we are seeing that obviously, of course, in the the CEA industry, over the past 10 years especially, you know, we've seen a lot of models that were very brought out with much fanfare and have blown up spectacularly and a lot of people in the industry are looking at those from the beginning saying, well, that's horticulturally unsound or that is economically unfeasible, and all one has to do is do a deeper dive and look at what works and what doesn't. I tell people all the time when I'm speaking at industry events and they'll ask me about a specific technology and I'll explain it to them and I'll say, you know, here's where it was implemented and it did not work, and here's why. Or it worked very well and here's why I like the old expression success leaves clues. And unfortunately I see a lot of people coming into the industry who they just scratch the surface, they don't really do a deep dive on a particular CEA model and then later you can't understand why everything failed, when I would say, well, here's 300 examples of that same scenario playing out.

So I do think one of the most common mistakes is someone gets caught up on a certain technology and I'm just picking one a greenhouse farm or a shipping container farm or an indoor vertical farm. And they want to run an indoor vertical farm, for example, and I'll say, well, is that really what you're looking to do? Yes, I want to run a vertical farm. Well, let's step back a little, you know, are you looking to provide food for your local community and run a successful business? Yes, that's what I'm looking to do. Okay, so as indoor vertical farming the right method and we start breaking it down. So we have to look at the outcome. What are you looking to do? You're looking to produce food? You're looking to do genetics research? You're looking to grow plant material just for your family? I mean, whatever that goal is. Then you go backwards and determine what the right technologies and methods are.

People get stuck on a certain technology and then they try to fit their model into it. I always use the analogy of trying to force a square pegging around hole. It just doesn't work. So that's by far the most common mistake. I mean growing mistakes in terms of you know what type of environment to provide or what, how to manage your nutrition or what have you. Those are universal challenges that every grower faces and fortunately, that learning curve is very steep and fairly quick, but the one that is always hard to overcome is getting attached to a specific model, a specific technology or method without truly understanding what you're trying to do. So again, cea technology CEA is not a thing. Cea is an array of technological tools that we have to carefully select.

I like to use the analogy of a plumber. If you have a plumbing problem in your house and you call a plumber and he or she comes with a truck filled with tools, they don't bring all the tools into the house. They go into the house, they look at the problem, they assess the problem. They, because they have experience, they have the seasoned eye, they can then determine what the problem is, determine what they need to do to solve the problem. They go out to the truck, they get the correct tools, they bring them in, they fix the problem, and CEA is very much like that.

So you don't buy a whole plumbing, plumbing tool truck and just bring them all in and throw them on the ground. You go out and you select the right ones for the right job, and every plumbing job is different, so you use different tools. Cea is exactly the same we use. We have different outcomes, different models and different goals, so we use different technologies to do that. So I always like to tell people to really step back. Look at what your overall outcome or desired outcome is. Then we can build the right technological tools and model around that. Otherwise, you're starting to have a lot of errors.

:: 22:10

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Are there any other myths that you come across when it comes to CEA? There's a lot of. You mentioned it earlier. Just there's a lot of hype and you've probably seen a second wave of this with the interest in vertical farming, the investment and tech and people coming into this space from a technology perspective or treating it like a SaaS company without any experience in farming, to your point as well, and so there's a lot of people who have not had success and I think people from the outside, from an investment perspective, are seeing CEA and also specifically vertical farming as this new opportunity. So I'm curious, you know, having had your experience, when you think about other myths or misconceptions people have about entering this industry, if there's anything else that comes to mind.

:: 22:55

Well, certainly, obviously, the singular technology is definitely one of the biggest. The other one that I see and again this also relates to investor interest is when we look at a model, and again I'm just going to use indoor vertical farming as the example. We're looking, we've got an industrial building. It's an old factory, and we want to convert it to vertical farming. And you know, you look at what it would take to convert that, to install the correct horticultural environmental control systems, the right growing systems, to design things for maximum efficiency and maximum productivity. But the economics still don't pan out. And so someone will say well, when the cost of LED lights comes down, then it will be profitable. When climate change does X, y or Z, then it will be successful. If we, the labor market, changes dramatically, then this will be successful. So you're making the success of a model contingent upon some event that may or may not happen, and that's another challenge. Now, look, obviously we don't know exactly what the future holds, and so developing our technologies and our approaches to hopefully overcome any potential future challenges, of course, is one of the most important jobs that we're doing in CEA, and I'd like to talk in a minute about some of the new tools that we're looking to provide to the industry to that end.

But if you take a any particular model and it has to be dramatically reworked or some external factors have to change dramatically to make your model work, that never ends up ending well and we see to this day. Even I have real estate folks, for example, call me almost on a weekly basis. I have this great building. I can get it for a dollar a square foot, so obviously an indoor vertical farm will make perfect sense. No, it doesn't, and cheap real estate doesn't change the model, or the cost of LED lighting most likely isn't gonna change dramatically, so that suddenly goes out the window.

So you have a lot of different factors that you're somehow expecting to change dramatically and that doesn't usually pan out Again. We don't always know, our crystal ball isn't as clear as we'd like it to be, but certainly the concept and the methods that you use have to be pretty valid and sound now to really make a lot of sense. So I think that's one of the bigger myths that we struggle with all the time and, quite frankly, from my perspective it doesn't affect me a whole lot, except for the fact that I see a lot of good people go down the wrong path, lose money, lose time. Economic hardship brought on by bad decisions is always hard for me to watch, so we always try as best we can to steer people in the right direction.

:: 25:54

Yeah, and definitely appreciative for the work you're doing to steer people in the right direction. So maybe speaking to that a little bit and then we can jump into the new tools. What do you make of what you're seeing? I love the perspective that you have because of your time in the industry. Did you notice a shift with the work that you're doing? A lot of it was in greenhouse based, but was there a noticeable shift when there was a renewed interest in specifically vertical farming? Maybe a rational exuberance or irrational exuberance is probably the phrase, but I'm wondering how you saw that from your perspective as it was happening and playing it out, especially with your experience, knowing what you know.

:: 26:35

I certainly understand that. I mean I built an indoor, completely indoor, vertical farm back in 1986. So, and did so with that exuberance that you said, the idea that we could use these technologies and grow in a way that no one's growing, and so I understand that poll very much so and so, and I've certainly seen that model makes sense in certain applications. So again, it's not. I don't know, there are very few models that I just say this is just completely ridiculous. We're gonna try to push this away. But the push for this type of technology indoor farming, for example it usually comes from a very good place. We're looking, we have to produce more food, we have to produce it in less space, using less resources. So obviously moving indoors and growing vertically would make sense in that regard. Obviously there are a lot of challenges because we're still dealing with horticulture production and we're dealing with economics, and so again, we're using technology to farm. We're not trying to farm with technology. And so in the trends and I talked about this before in the 1980s when I got started, there were great investments Warehouse or lumber peppers farms, general electric. They invested in these large greenhouse farms in Virginia and Pennsylvania and New York state where there was some Dutch technology, for example hydroponic lettuce greenhouses. They were building these large greenhouses and I still have some media articles talking about the future of food and by 1990, all of our food is gonna be grown in these indoor food factories.

And I immediately got caught up in that as well and did a lot of work. I did some work with GTE in Sylvania and built a number of configurations on my own farm in our potato storage to try to make the technologies fit to what I was doing. Well, of course the media picked it up and everyone was enthralled with it. And then they all failed and that damaged the industry a lot. We saw a dry investment dried up the public's perception suddenly of hydroponics and CEA. It wasn't called CEA at the time, but that's what it was. The public's perception was definitely tainted at that point and it took the industry many years to really recover and to get that credibility back. And then of course now people are more aware of what the great things we can do with CEA.

g points that we heard in the: 1980

So it's not we're not. It's in no way saying we're against technology or technological advancement, but technological advancement has to be the means to the end. It can't be the end, because, again, that may sound like semantics, but if our goal is to just have something that's technologically innovative, failure is almost inevitable. So the concept of improving what we have and even going outside the box and developing something new, but with a very specific goal in mind is where we have to be.

:: 30:46

Yeah, definitely makes a lot of sense when you think about it from that perspective. So you did mention a couple of new tools that have you excited or things that you're working on or working with. Can you talk a little bit about those?

:: 30:57

Sure, to that end, I mean, amhydro has always, since its inception, long before I came along, amhydro had always been working on creating effective tools for growers, so in other words, equipment and technology that produces high quality, does it consistently, does it efficiently, conserves the resources and hopefully puts more money back in the grower's pocket and gives the grower some more free time. And I know that sounds like a tall order for a farmer, but certainly that was always the goal, and I think Amhydro did an amazing job of developing growing systems and methods to do that, and that was always one of the things that I most was attracted to, and so in joining Amhydro I've been very fortunate. Jenny Harris has done an amazing job. I mean, she's really built the company around. The concept of a rising tide raises all boats and we want to raise the industry up by providing the right tools, the right conversations. I appreciate being here today to have that conversation with you, to share growing methods, to share technological advancements, so all growers can improve, the industry can improve, and that's really what the future of the industry looks like. So, anyway, what I've been working on with Amhydro for the past several years is refining our systems, of course, and we're always making improvements to the systems.

We're also looking at where are growers' pain points. I always enjoy seeing a grower succeed, but I'm actually more interested in where are the growers struggling? Where are they having challenges? Is it managing your environment? Is it your efficiency? Is it your overall productivity? You know there's lots of things to look at. So to that end, we have been working with. We have thousands of growers all over the world and the problems that the growers have are pretty universal. And so in CEA right now, one of the biggest issues related to grower challenges is the management. Growers wear too many hats, they're doing too many things. There's not enough hours in the day, so how to manage your operation better, to schedule your tasks, to pass tasks off to your greenhouse crews, to validate what was done, to track your crops, to be able to evaluate, to use data collection to evaluate past performances and make better decisions moving down the road. So we certainly were not interested in getting involved in CEA related software, but we saw a huge need.

There are software solutions that are available. Almost every one of them are very complicated, usually quite expensive, very clunky. Growers around the world have complained to us that they tried this software or that software and it was too difficult to use and they abandoned it, or it was too expensive so they didn't implement it, or it just didn't actually do what they needed to have done. We always try to stay as simple as possible Simplicity is almost always best and so what we did was we worked with a leading software company and we're almost ready. At Indoor AgCon in March we're gonna kind of roll it out, but we've developed a very simple and effective CEA farm management software that does everything from track your crops using RFID chips so you can basically follow your crops and know exactly where crops are in your grow space when they should be ready for harvest. You can track using AI and machine learning to.

Ai and machine learning are kind of the big popular buzzwords and people tend to believe that somehow that AI is gonna just simply run our farms for us. But instead what it does is all the data that the software collects, which is again very simple and very straightforward as growers input their tasks and input and direction to their growers. But all that data gets collected and then provides input to the grower, helping growers to refine their schedules, to understand better how their GreenVib lettuce produces in March versus in October, so they can adjust not only their production but their marketing and their labor utilization as well. So having a tool. Ultimately, what we try to do is we try to develop a tool that either puts more money in the growers pocket or frees them up to do other things hopefully both things at once, but that's what we tried to do. So we've developed a software that really helps take a lot off a grower or manager's plate, provides the data that is needed for your food safety audits, provides data for investors to actually be able to evaluate the economic and productivity results and data from a particular farm. It allows you to run multiple farms if you need to, and it does it in a very simple, easy to use manner. So you don't need an MIT degree. You don't need to be lugging a laptop around with you in the computer in the greenhouse all the time. So we're really proud of that because, again, it's an effective tool.

We're not trying to develop a technology and say, hey, buy our technology because it's really cool. We actually wanna come to the industry and say, here's a tool that we've developed based on your needs, based on where your pain points are, and, of course, obviously, labor is another issue, and in CEA the debate about automation, of course, has raged forever, and whether we look at automated systems, manual systems or something in between, everyone has an opinion, and so what we had to look at was developing some automation for our particular growing systems that could fit into our platform. So if you have an NFT lettuce system, for example, you can automate to a higher level using the same system. So we're not selling a new system, we're allowing you to retrofit an existing system or you can build one from scratch using the automation and the level at which you automate. So if you're looking for automation, obviously labor reduction is one of the big factors in that.

Food safety the fewer touches that human hands are involved with food production obviously are another consideration. Increasing our efficiencies, increasing our space utilization, these are all things that people want automation to do. But, like everything we've already talked about, there's no one magic bullet. So if in a larger facility it makes sense to have a fully automated system where transplanting, movement of the plants within the system, automatic harvesting and packaging called for, it can be done, maybe your automation is just moving the plants and having converse at the end, running it through a harvesting and cutting system. The level to which you automate should be specific to that growing operation Because, again, all automated systems or non-automated systems don't always fit.

So the level and extent to which you automate the same platform needs to be brought to the market and so, based on that, we've developed automation for our own systems, which we'll also be rolling out early this year as an add-on to systems.

So, again, growers can customize one existing platform to their needs.

They don't need a whole new platform if they want to expand or a different system, if they want to raise the level of automation, they can simply incorporate it. So, again, it goes to productivity and positive economics, because if you're running a 30 by 96 greenhouse and you want to automate a certain level, that's going to look very different than if you're running a 10 acre greenhouse, and we want both growers the 10 acre greenhouse and the backyard 30 by 96 greenhouse to have that access to the automation that makes the most sense for them. So, and we have other things that we're working on, but we are always looking at refining our existing tools and, if need be, developing tools that give the growers what they need. Again, we don't want to just say we created this, come buy it. We want to be able to come to growers and say, hey, we're trying to make your life easier. Hey, we're trying to put more money in your pocket. Hey, we're trying to increase your ability to grow more food with less resources.

:: 39:07

That makes a lot of sense and it sounds like it's not a one size fits all and automation means different things for different farms. Right, and automation is not always robotics and AI. I think that sometimes people get that confused as well. You can convey your belts. It could be something as simple as that to help automate some of the processes that they're currently doing.

:: 39:24

Yeah, for sure. I mean, material handling and efficiency is really what we're looking to do, and that looks very different for many different applications.

:: 39:34

And it's interesting to, especially with an industry that had a lot of decades of being out there for the consumer. But there's also this plug and play aspect that people are looking for but necessarily don't achieve, because in conversations that I've had previously with founders, ceos, there is this sort of like don't look behind the curtain aspect of how we've got all these systems working together and the different plugs we're using and the EU stuff versus the American stuff, and then we've got to make it all work together. But as long as you don't look behind the curtain and everything looks fine and it's running. But I imagine you've seen some of those installations yourself as well.

:: 40:09

Yeah, I've had, and I've had conversations with a number of people in the industry that we've all had good laughs about that, that everyone talks about their proprietary approach and really there's very little new or unusual of a proprietary in the industry. Everyone has their own spin on things and, of course, everyone wants you to believe that my system is superior because of this and this and this, but especially the secret sauce that I can't divulge, and really that's ridiculous. Our systems are designed where, if something should be broken or damaged, you could literally go to Home Depot and buy some parts to retrofit. For the time being, the concept of simplicity is really the elegance that drives CEA successful CEA, I mean. And so, yeah, I mean, everyone has a different approach to growing per se, but by and large, the successful model, or the successful models, are really based upon mostly tried and true technologies and techniques.

:: 41:13

We're always improving, but we're not reinventing the wheel, are you seeing any progress, joe, being made in standardizing some of these protocols or some of these, all this equipment work together? Is anyone making strides in trying to get some of these to a point where everyone can play nicely together?

:: 41:33

That's a great question and, as a grower versus a consultant and technology provider, I kind of see it from both ends. I have always, as a grower, resisted sharing too much information about my own particular operation methods just simply because it is. Farming in general is a very competitive industry, and so I understand the desire to take technologies and methods that you've worked really hard to develop and holding onto them. But on the flip side of that, I also see that's really the only way for the industry to grow is for us to share. And I think conversations your podcast has done an amazing job and I think conversations like that are important because we have to have these conversations and talk more openly about what we're doing and why we're doing it, and I think that will move the industry forward. But I definitely see that as being a big stumbling block and certainly taking quite some time. I think now conversations at events like Indoor, adcon and CEA, summideast the conversations that we're having are more open and honest. I think for a long time it was like the concept of this is what we're doing. Like you say, don't look behind the curtain, we have our own methods and not talking about the problems, not talking about the challenges, talking more about my success and my great system or my great methods or what have you and now we. When I was at CEA Summideast in Virginia in September and the conversations were amazing. People were talking about failures and they were talking about solutions to the failures. And that's the conversation that we need to have, because problem solving is what really moves this industry forward and helps develop those standards.

Like you asked about, the notion that one person is an island certainly does not hold much water in CEA.

So the standard I know that there's been a number of organizations and groups and companies that have tried to develop some CEA standards and I think that's good. But I think that the growth really has to be more organic. It has to be all of us having open conversations, using information from each other, learning from each other and I think with that as growers, if we had all the growers in the industry sharing their successes and their failures, it would open up standards that would naturally evolve from that. So instead of saying I'm gonna take my ideas and my experience and I'm gonna develop standards, I think we'd all develop very similar standards because the problems I said earlier, the problems and challenges that growers face all over the world and at all levels of technology, are all pretty universal. So the CEA standards, I think, will evolve naturally. I'm happy that groups and people have taken upon themselves to try to work toward that end, but I honestly believe that most of the real improvement and development in those standards will just come naturally to the industry.

:: 44:38

Yeah, and that's a helpful perspective to have and shout out to Henry Gordon Smith from Agri-Texter, who recently had a webinar specifically on the topic of failures and bringing in some of the founders or some of the folks who are working in those farms to talk openly, to your point, about what worked and what didn't work. And I think the more we can do that and I think at these conferences I did notice that as well at Interactive NYC, some of those conversations were happening as well and so I think, to your point the more that this happens in an open format and, specifically, that everyone's open about the realities of what's happening, cause it would be silly to it's almost an emperor wears no clothes moment to not talk about what's obviously been happening in this industry 100%.

:: 45:22

Yeah, the openness, and I think there's so much more to be learned from failure than success.

:: 45:27

Anyway, and so, as we get close to wrapping up here, I'm curious this is something I ask all of my guests and curious what your take on it would be. But what's a tough question you've had to ask yourself recently.

:: 45:40

Tough question. I think probably the thing I struggle with the most is how to best get this. A lot of what we've just talked about today, how to get that to people in a usable way, and what I mean by that is one. A lot of people, myself included, have biases and can get caught up in my way I'm right, my model, and not seeing the bigger picture. Or if I'm talking about, let's say, vertical farming and you're a vertical farming component, and rather than maybe having a discussion that's productive and constructive, where we talk about what's right and what's wrong and how to solve that, it can kind of devolve into us versus them, or I'm right, you're wrong kind of approach. And so I always struggle and I ask myself this a lot, because how do I do that in a better way?

Because, again, I do come from an old school farming background and things are pretty cut and dry in most cases, and so I know what I'm trying to get across, but I don't always get it across appropriately or correctly, and if you don't, that will make people more resistant. So, online I've had many online interactions with people. People either really like what I have to say or they hate what I have to say and there's not much in between, and I've always struggled with that, because I'm always coming from a good place and I want to help people and to improve things for people but oftentimes come across maybe too critical about something without actually articulating where I'm really coming from. So that really, for me, is something that I've always, it's always caused me to reflect back and it's certainly something I still struggle with and will probably continue to do so forever.

:: 47:32

Well, I think if anyone is coming to those conversations with you, I imagine they'll take a look at all you've done to contribute to this industry and that your heart is in the right place. And so I think leading those conversations with an understanding that we're all trying to get to the same place I think is helpful. That said, I've been leaving some time at the end of these conversations for any messages or any thoughts you have specifically for the indoor farming, vertical farming industry, your peers, your colleagues in the space, a lot of whom listen to this show. So does anything come to mind for thoughts about where we've been, where we're going, or just some wisdom from someone who's had such a wide range of experience in this industry?

:: 48:16

Well, first of all, I'm very grateful for each and every one of you in the CEA industry. I mean, there's so much great information and knowledge floating around. It's easier to sometimes get caught up and with some of the more disreputable people in the industry, if you will, but at the end of the day, as you said, we're all trying to get to the same place, and I have had so many amazing conversations and interactions with growers and technology providers and investors and entrepreneurs, and look forward to doing more of that, but I'm so grateful for that and look forward to that every single day. If I had to offer some advice to people and again this could be new people from outside the industry or industry folks as well is not attach yourself to any one particular model, to be very open and look at what you're trying to accomplish and then back into the right technologies and methods. I think that careful analysis, with kind of the emotional component removed from that and looking very practically at things, opens a lot of eyes, and I think that eliminates a lot of problems and a lot of challenges for people, definitely sharing information. I also, though, I encourage everyone to be very skeptical of everything that someone tells you in this industry and I include myself. So whatever I say to you, please be skeptical If I say something you don't believe in or want to challenge, please. We need to have those conversations.

People right in this day and age on social media, people are afraid of offending people, they're afraid of saying a certain thing. So-and-so may be mad at me or so-and-so may think I'm dumb. We have to have the open dialogue and be able to have those conversations and validate. If I tell you, harry, we've developed a system that is going to increase your production by 30%, I darn well, I would expect you to challenge me on that and I would need to be able to prove it. I can say anything I want. That's not really going to help. So hold everybody in this industry to that high standard. If someone is making claims of productivity, of certain economics, of certain environmental impact, challenge that. Look into that. Because if we can't validate, I see a lot of BS. I've seen a lot of BS in this industry from the day I started till today and I know that will continue. So I definitely encourage people, have honest discussions, but don't be afraid to challenge any notion. And if I can tell you something, if I can't demonstrate what I'm saying, then what I'm saying is useless. So hold me to that very high standard and hold everyone else to that same standard as well.

I'd encourage people getting into CEA to always start a little smaller and a little more modest, using the right technology and the right approach. If I could go back and start my career all over again as a farmer, I would have built a greenhouse half the size, used better equipment and been more productive, and that was probably my biggest mistake Getting practical experience. Go and volunteer work for a farm, if you can. Cea is not something that you can just buy the right software or by the right system or read the right book and Just get in and do. It's a long process. It takes a lot of experience and Working with people who have experience or getting that experience yourself. That is worth its weight in gold and so that I think overall would be my best advice to people and welcome to farming.

:: 51:50

Definitely a lot there to unpack and I think anyone who's interested in exploring this industry Especially coming from outside industries or just seeing the hype, I think would probably have to play back this this last ten minutes a couple of times. There's a lot of nuggets of wisdom there and I think it's important, especially if they want to get started on the right foot and not make the same mistakes. You know, because people have been down this path and people have done. There's probably nothing new under the sun or under the greenhouse canopy that hasn't been tried already here. So I think why make the same mistakes if you can avoid them? And so I think that's it's really important to take key to what you just shared there.

So I appreciate you sharing that and bringing in your wisdom and that openness to share, and Also this idea of taking what resonates and discard. Discard the rest, right, not everything that you hear. You have to take a face value and do your own homework as well. I think is important guidance as well. Absolutely Well, joe, thanks for reaching out. You know it's hard for me to feel like I connect to everyone in industry as much as I've had, you know, fun at the events and going to these conferences and meeting people, a lot of my guests for the first time getting to shake hands in person, but there's still so many folks that I haven't met and I'm sure you probably have some ideas of people I can speak to. I know you speak it in direct kind and I'm looking forward to connecting with you in person there because I'll be there as well myself.

Shout out to Suzanne and the team there. They're doing a great job. They're sponsoring and this the next season, the season of podcasts as well, so I'm really grateful for their support and everything they're doing for the industry. So I'm looking forward to connect and If people want to learn more about what you're doing other than meeting you in person, is indoor icon. Where's the best place for them to go?

:: 53:30

So am hydro has a real extensive social media on all platforms. Am hydro I'm anyone wants to send an email? I'm just Joe at am hydro calm. But social media is we have. We feature photos of growers and installations every single day. So we have a YouTube channel as well with a lot of instructional videos. So there's ample stuff to dig through. So feel free to to go through, see what you would like to see, and certainly feel free to Contact us at any time, because we do love to talk about CEA, as you can tell.

:: 54:02

Yeah well, thanks again. We'll have all those links in the show notes as well. Appreciate your time, Joe.

:: 54:06

Thank you, I really appreciate it.